Forums > Social Discussion > If you have Equity Fire PLI you need to read this...
Login/Join to ParticipateGOLD Member
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Re-insurance season is upon us and I have just had my documentation in and upon reading it came across a point of (minor) alarm. This is a point that everyone who is insured by Equity needs to be aware of:
Special Condition (H) Torches and other fire equipment must be stored and extinguished in an airtight metal container.
I think it's fair to say that it's an impractical and unnecessary point, and that no-one does this. Which means that anyone who doesn't is uninsured in the event of a claim.
I just had a very interesting chat with the chap from First Act Insurance (the company who underwright Equity's Insurance policies). The guy from First Act (Matt Walker) is a entirely reasonable and knowledgeable chap. He mentioned that people have debated this point and have had it changed on their insurance (everything, it seems, is negotiable). He suggested that I write in with my alternative to change my personal policy and commented that although he was pretty aware of the impracticality of it not enough people had expressed this to make the insurance company think of changing it.
I would like to propose a better, more realistic alternative that is as safe. I would then like to ask that
anyone who is insured through First Act writes in suggesting the same chance. I think it would give First Act the kick needed to make it a standard.
I want to try to include the acceptance of wet towels in the policy and explained to Matt why we use them: they do a better job of cutting off the air supply and that they do not transfer heat as easily as fire blankets do. It is probably worth mentioning that once fire blankets have been used to extinguish equipment a few times that actually become flammable!
So here goes:
All fire equipment must be extinguished by either fire blanket or wet towel then placed under a fire blanket or wet towel until the performance has concluded.
Any lett er sent to these guys needs to go through the why's, how's etc.. in much more detail to become credible in their eyes, but as a basic starting concept we need to start form somewhere... so is the above good enough?
Suggestions please!
I'll be writing my own letter, if you want a copy, please e-mail me at info(at)flameoz(dot)com
Nice one,
Dave
Re-insurance season is upon us and I have just had my documentation in and upon reading it came across a point of (minor) alarm. This is a point that everyone who is insured by Equity needs to be aware of:
Special Condition (H) Torches and other fire equipment must be stored and extinguished in an airtight metal container.
I think it's fair to say that it's an impractical and unnecessary point, and that no-one does this. Which means that anyone who doesn't is uninsured in the event of a claim.
I just had a very interesting chat with the chap from First Act Insurance (the company who underwright Equity's Insurance policies). The guy from First Act (Matt Walker) is a entirely reasonable and knowledgeable chap. He mentioned that people have debated this point and have had it changed on their insurance (everything, it seems, is negotiable). He suggested that I write in with my alternative to change my personal policy and commented that although he was pretty aware of the impracticality of it not enough people had expressed this to make the insurance company think of changing it.
I would like to propose a better, more realistic alternative that is as safe. I would then like to ask that
anyone who is insured through First Act writes in suggesting the same chance. I think it would give First Act the kick needed to make it a standard.
I want to try to include the acceptance of wet towels in the policy and explained to Matt why we use them: they do a better job of cutting off the air supply and that they do not transfer heat as easily as fire blankets do. It is probably worth mentioning that once fire blankets have been used to extinguish equipment a few times that actually become flammable!
So here goes:
All fire equipment must be extinguished by either fire blanket or wet towel then placed under a fire blanket or wet towel until the performance has concluded.
Any lett er sent to these guys needs to go through the why's, how's etc.. in much more detail to become credible in their eyes, but as a basic starting concept we need to start form somewhere... so is the above good enough?
Suggestions please!
I'll be writing my own letter, if you want a copy, please e-mail me at info(at)flameoz(dot)com
Nice one,
Dave
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
Thanks for the heads-up.
I'm thinking the "stored" bit is also going to need covering with a suitable/practical alternative, something like "All fire equipment will be stored away from heat and ignition sources. All fire equipment will be stored seperate from fuel."
It may also be useful to note that I've had occasions upon which my dipping container has needed to be labelled as containing flammable stuff, so doing that as a matter of course isn't a bad idea.
Thanks for the heads-up.
I'm thinking the "stored" bit is also going to need covering with a suitable/practical alternative, something like "All fire equipment will be stored away from heat and ignition sources. All fire equipment will be stored seperate from fuel."
It may also be useful to note that I've had occasions upon which my dipping container has needed to be labelled as containing flammable stuff, so doing that as a matter of course isn't a bad idea.
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the 
up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
I think there may be difficulties there in that if the fire blanket has been used to the point that it is flammable then covering the extinguished equipment with it would be a fire hazard.
Written by: Knoxious
It is probably worth mentioning that once fire blankets have been used to extinguish equipment a few times that actually become flammable!
So here goes:
All fire equipment must be extinguished by either fire blanket or wet towel then placed under a fire blanket or wet towel until the performance has concluded.
I think there may be difficulties there in that if the fire blanket has been used to the point that it is flammable then covering the extinguished equipment with it would be a fire hazard.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
GOLD Member
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
yeah agreed. The only reason I put fire blanket in there is because it's their current 'standard'. I'll personally only be using wet towels, hence the "or"....
yeah agreed. The only reason I put fire blanket in there is because it's their current 'standard'. I'll personally only be using wet towels, hence the "or"....
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i mean if you explain to them that a fire blanket can become a fire hazard then they wont go for it, its their responsibility not yours to make sure the terms in their policy are ok so i guess i would put it as just a fire blanket seeings as thats their standard, if you see what i mean
i mean if you explain to them that a fire blanket can become a fire hazard then they wont go for it, its their responsibility not yours to make sure the terms in their policy are ok so i guess i would put it as just a fire blanket seeings as thats their standard, if you see what i mean
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
I know what Ben means Dave
I dont tell them im using a wet towel - I just make sure I always have a Fire Blanket on hand incase anything should happen
You gonna post the 'sample' letter on here when youve written or keep it in the other thread?
PNigel - Im all for making it a safe as possible, on the other hand I dont want to go suggesting lots of extra things we need to do (obviously labeling your dipping container isnt such a big deal! and is certainly an important safety precaution)
Im just suggestiong we try to make our lives as easy as possible.
I know what Ben means Dave
I dont tell them im using a wet towel - I just make sure I always have a Fire Blanket on hand incase anything should happen
You gonna post the 'sample' letter on here when youve written or keep it in the other thread?
PNigel - Im all for making it a safe as possible, on the other hand I dont want to go suggesting lots of extra things we need to do (obviously labeling your dipping container isnt such a big deal! and is certainly an important safety precaution)
Im just suggestiong we try to make our lives as easy as possible.
Feel the Flame
Phirenix
Pinker than thou
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
336 posts
Location: A little pink world all my own..
Posted:
Me either- all I'm saying is that the current clause includes storage so the alternative will probably need to as well. I tried to word it to be interpretable as "don't stick your fuel container in the same bag as your kit" so as to make it the least extra that needed doing...
We all know that the reality of performance is likely to be different from the paper copy anyway, how often are you really x-metres away from the punters when swinging fire? (heck, I just did an angle grind gig this weekend where the client expected me to basically do it in the middle of the crowd. health and safety issues with that anyone??)
Written by: FireNix
PNigel - Im all for making it a safe as possible, on the other hand I dont want to go suggesting lots of extra things we need to do (obviously labeling your dipping container isnt such a big deal! and is certainly an important safety precaution)
Im just suggestiong we try to make our lives as easy as possible.
Me either- all I'm saying is that the current clause includes storage so the alternative will probably need to as well. I tried to word it to be interpretable as "don't stick your fuel container in the same bag as your kit" so as to make it the least extra that needed doing...
We all know that the reality of performance is likely to be different from the paper copy anyway, how often are you really x-metres away from the punters when swinging fire? (heck, I just did an angle grind gig this weekend where the client expected me to basically do it in the middle of the crowd. health and safety issues with that anyone??)
A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)
BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
It would be annoying but you could start carrying them in an old ammo can. It's metal and air-tight for the most part..
It would be annoying but you could start carrying them in an old ammo can. It's metal and air-tight for the most part..
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
GOLD Member
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
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420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
PNigel, the point is that yes, we are responsible. If you do something that requires you to claim and you;re found in breach, you will not be covered. Sure the client wants you to do that, but it's not safe, and as a responsible performer (I hope) you'd say no. This, for me is one way I xcan remain responsible and still be covered.
Lurch, the ammo can would need to be big enough to fit all your kit for a show. FlameOz perfoms with upto 7 people so for us that's a lot of kit and therefore a bloody great big ammo can.
nix/ben... yeah I guess, but.... why not try to make it real? The other plus point of a towel is that it actually does a much better job of cutting the air supply to the fire which is really how objects like wet towels and fire blankts put out the fire - by literally smothering the flames.
'scuse the rant but...why should some beaurocratic, unknowledgable desk jockey dictate to us what best practice is? We are the experienced professionals right?
I see that a British Safety Standard Fire Blanket looks better on paper than a Wet Towel, but at the same time...so what?
I'll post my letter up here...
PNigel, the point is that yes, we are responsible. If you do something that requires you to claim and you;re found in breach, you will not be covered. Sure the client wants you to do that, but it's not safe, and as a responsible performer (I hope) you'd say no. This, for me is one way I xcan remain responsible and still be covered.
Lurch, the ammo can would need to be big enough to fit all your kit for a show. FlameOz perfoms with upto 7 people so for us that's a lot of kit and therefore a bloody great big ammo can.
nix/ben... yeah I guess, but.... why not try to make it real? The other plus point of a towel is that it actually does a much better job of cutting the air supply to the fire which is really how objects like wet towels and fire blankts put out the fire - by literally smothering the flames.
'scuse the rant but...why should some beaurocratic, unknowledgable desk jockey dictate to us what best practice is? We are the experienced professionals right?
I see that a British Safety Standard Fire Blanket looks better on paper than a Wet Towel, but at the same time...so what?
I'll post my letter up here...
BRONZE Member
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
old hand
929 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
well ammo cans do come in various sizes. I don't know how big your chains are, and I could definitely see a problem with staff, but there are plenty of cans large enough to hold 7 sets of poi. A 30mm box for example is 18 1/2" long 9 1/2" wide and 14 1/2" tall. That's not even counting the various other styles of 'army surplus' boxes you can get like 'medical transport' boxes which are typically 31" X 12" X 19".
I'm just saying, if you want an air tight metal box thats large enough, that is the route I would take without having to drop hundreds of dollars on something else.
well ammo cans do come in various sizes. I don't know how big your chains are, and I could definitely see a problem with staff, but there are plenty of cans large enough to hold 7 sets of poi. A 30mm box for example is 18 1/2" long 9 1/2" wide and 14 1/2" tall. That's not even counting the various other styles of 'army surplus' boxes you can get like 'medical transport' boxes which are typically 31" X 12" X 19".
I'm just saying, if you want an air tight metal box thats large enough, that is the route I would take without having to drop hundreds of dollars on something else.
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Warning: Please Do Not Jump On The Seals
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Most of the time, insurance is just a hoop we jump through to say 'yep I've got it'. But IF a claim ever needed to be made, be sure that insurance companies will not 'overlook' a breach of the literal wording of the document. Good on ya Dave for working on getting these wordings changed to reflect best practice.
ps
Yep, nice size for a few sets of poi, but a box big enough to fit FlameOz's full kit would be more the size of a coffin.
Most of the time, insurance is just a hoop we jump through to say 'yep I've got it'. But IF a claim ever needed to be made, be sure that insurance companies will not 'overlook' a breach of the literal wording of the document. Good on ya Dave for working on getting these wordings changed to reflect best practice.
ps
Written by: Lurch
31" X 12" X 19".
Yep, nice size for a few sets of poi, but a box big enough to fit FlameOz's full kit would be more the size of a coffin.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted:
Yeah some things just can't easly be sealed up. My fire hula hoop is hard enough to transport as it is let alone trying to find a box that it will fit in. Man some times i wish i had a break down one.
Yeah some things just can't easly be sealed up. My fire hula hoop is hard enough to transport as it is let alone trying to find a box that it will fit in. Man some times i wish i had a break down one.
I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Ah, hoops, the blue whale of the fire world!
Ah, hoops, the blue whale of the fire world!
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted:
yeah big heavy and full of crill
yeah big heavy and full of crill
I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
Dave I totaly see your point. The BEST thing would be to get the wording to reflect what is actually the safest way of doing things.
I think the main issue with trying to get the OK for wet towels is that you would have to find a way of standardising them. Ie Certain, thickness, size, dampness? I would imagine the insurance company would require this in their wording -otherwise someone may use a tea towel!
This is why I suggest keeping to the 'use the wet towel cuz it works, keep the fire blanket for the cover' approach.
However I dont wanna be defeatest - lets work on the letter and see if we can change the world
Dave I totaly see your point. The BEST thing would be to get the wording to reflect what is actually the safest way of doing things.
I think the main issue with trying to get the OK for wet towels is that you would have to find a way of standardising them. Ie Certain, thickness, size, dampness? I would imagine the insurance company would require this in their wording -otherwise someone may use a tea towel!
This is why I suggest keeping to the 'use the wet towel cuz it works, keep the fire blanket for the cover' approach.
However I dont wanna be defeatest - lets work on the letter and see if we can change the world
Feel the Flame
Phirenix
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
your working on the assumption that they are going to see things from your point of view and empathize with the fact that your being upfront and honest. The reality is insurance companies are there to make money and they don't want to pay claims (probably why that clause is in there at the moment)
they are all about mitigating their risk so if you mention that fire blankets can become a fire risk then they will see that as something they have to protect themselves against and make it harder for you to conform to their policy. I totally hear where your coming from with being upfront however having just spent the day practising negotiating contracts, the take away message was give an inch and they wont just take a foot they will take the whole damn thing!!!
Written by: Knoxious
nix/ben... yeah I guess, but.... why not try to make it real? The other plus point of a towel is that it actually does a much better job of cutting the air supply to the fire which is really how objects like wet towels and fire blankts put out the fire - by literally smothering the flames.
your working on the assumption that they are going to see things from your point of view and empathize with the fact that your being upfront and honest. The reality is insurance companies are there to make money and they don't want to pay claims (probably why that clause is in there at the moment)
they are all about mitigating their risk so if you mention that fire blankets can become a fire risk then they will see that as something they have to protect themselves against and make it harder for you to conform to their policy. I totally hear where your coming from with being upfront however having just spent the day practising negotiating contracts, the take away message was give an inch and they wont just take a foot they will take the whole damn thing!!!
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
BRONZE Member
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
old hand
904 posts
Location: India/Bristol
Posted:
Yeah - I have to say I agree with Ben
One of the things I was thinking was that we dont want to give them too much extra to think about. If you give them anything to worry about they will probably put it in.
Just imagine if theres a claim and the underwriters get to see that we have specified that there is a small risk with overused FireBlankets. Arent they gonna say that we havent gone to 'reasonable' lengths, blah, blah.
I dont know I feel as though WE know its safe and they probably know whats safe - but that doesnt neccessarily equal the safest policy wording!
They are ultimately there to take our money and do their damndest not to pay out - a cynical but realistic view!
Lets not give them more reason to weedle out of a claim.
Incidentally Dave you know anyone thats made a claim on this or any other policy?
Yeah - I have to say I agree with Ben
One of the things I was thinking was that we dont want to give them too much extra to think about. If you give them anything to worry about they will probably put it in.
Just imagine if theres a claim and the underwriters get to see that we have specified that there is a small risk with overused FireBlankets. Arent they gonna say that we havent gone to 'reasonable' lengths, blah, blah.
I dont know I feel as though WE know its safe and they probably know whats safe - but that doesnt neccessarily equal the safest policy wording!
They are ultimately there to take our money and do their damndest not to pay out - a cynical but realistic view!
Lets not give them more reason to weedle out of a claim.
Incidentally Dave you know anyone thats made a claim on this or any other policy?
Feel the Flame
Phirenix
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,533 posts
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Posted:
You might point out that if a freshly extinguished wick is put in an airtight metal container then that airtight metal container will soon become filled with highly combustible fuel vapor and a heat source that might well be above the autoignition point for the fuel. That should hopefully give them pause, as it would me.
EDITED_BY: Sparkey (1192714370)
You might point out that if a freshly extinguished wick is put in an airtight metal container then that airtight metal container will soon become filled with highly combustible fuel vapor and a heat source that might well be above the autoignition point for the fuel. That should hopefully give them pause, as it would me.
EDITED_BY: Sparkey (1192714370)
-James
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