Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Rudimental Practice Regiment for Poi!
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stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
(If you don't feel like reading my intro, skip down to the How-To section)
In order to view, you have to go through the link to my Google-Doc Spread Sheet. I would recommend reading the explanation and intro
first, however
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=ro-UnBu7exaUdPswrviRGOw
Introduction:
I recently decided to get back into spinning poi after a lengthy hiatus (heh. 4 years?) and upon reentering this fine community, I found an almost overwhelming number of new moves/variations/styles/techniques/etc.
In order to step my game up and take my spinning from amateur/beginner to semi-pro/advanced level, I decided to borrow an idea from my days as a snare drummer and rework it into a useful training aid.
Origins:
Alan Dawson created the Rudmental Ritual for Snare Drummers for his book "The Commandments of Alan Dawson." Basically it combined 86 basic rudiments and variations (paradiddles, flams, rolls, windmills, rama-flams, para-flam-flams and so on) into one long piece of sheet music. The idea is that if you can play through the whole thing at a consistent tempo (while playing a samba pattern on the feet), then you will have mastered the technique and the transitions in advanced snare drumming.
I also drew inspiration from the flashcard program SuperMemo which relies on an algorithm to appropriate time for the daily review of facts (input info, review daily, depending on how well you know the stuff the program will make you review it more or less often until it is memorized. Check it out. It's boss.)
How To Use This Tool:
Basically I took all of the basic moves I could thing of (the 'root' moves, so to speak) [see note for explanation of selection process] and put them on one axis of a spread sheet. On the other axis I put a number of fields for variations (reverse, behind the back, anti-spin, isolated, extension, etc.). In the blank fields you enter a 1-5 rating:
1- Basic comprehension
2- Limited ability
3- Confident Ability
4- Flawless execution
5- Intuitive with transitions and variations.
Basically you use this chart to track your progress. 1-2 level moves you will spend the majority of your practice time working on. 3-4 level moves also deserve attention, though somewhat less, and 5 level moves require minimal attention.
You may also attempt to run through the entire ritual, but excluding redundancies, there are about 118030185 potential moves in this set
And in case you missed it, that link again is
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=ro-UnBu7exaUdPswrviRGOw
Discussion:
Having all of the moves laid out in front of you, as well as documentation of my progress has been enormously helpful in making the most out of my practice time. I often forget which moves need attention and which ones I can spend less time on.
That being said, it is incredibly important to work on transitions, general flow, and to have fun with your training. I tend to spend at least 20% of my training time just messing around, trying out combination and working on transition. It's not good to be able to just jump from move to move, but using this training aid can be very helpful in conquering the seemingly insurmountable list of moves.
Notes:
Okay, a word or two about how I selected moves for this list. You may notice some redundancies (for instance BTB weaves have their own category). In some cases I decided to sacrifice consistency for general comfort. Things like BTB weaves which are a massive subset of moves in and of themselves deserved their own category, IMO.
Also you may notice a general absence of wraps/hyperloopishness on this list. This is a personal choice (generally I don't use them much, so I cut them out of my training) and if you think they deserve representation, feel free to edit the document yourself.
Another thing: Most of the moves on this list came from HOP's library because, well, I'm lazy and there's plenty of stuff I need to learn on this list without going to the end of the earth to be comprehensive.
That being said, PLEASE, if you think I missed something fairly major, let me know. I'd like to make this an ongoing project.
Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks for all of your wonderful posts, by the way. I don't think spinning (in a global sense) would be the same without this community.
-AB
(If you don't feel like reading my intro, skip down to the How-To section)
In order to view, you have to go through the link to my Google-Doc Spread Sheet. I would recommend reading the explanation and intro
first, however
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=ro-UnBu7exaUdPswrviRGOw
Introduction:
I recently decided to get back into spinning poi after a lengthy hiatus (heh. 4 years?) and upon reentering this fine community, I found an almost overwhelming number of new moves/variations/styles/techniques/etc.
In order to step my game up and take my spinning from amateur/beginner to semi-pro/advanced level, I decided to borrow an idea from my days as a snare drummer and rework it into a useful training aid.
Origins:
Alan Dawson created the Rudmental Ritual for Snare Drummers for his book "The Commandments of Alan Dawson." Basically it combined 86 basic rudiments and variations (paradiddles, flams, rolls, windmills, rama-flams, para-flam-flams and so on) into one long piece of sheet music. The idea is that if you can play through the whole thing at a consistent tempo (while playing a samba pattern on the feet), then you will have mastered the technique and the transitions in advanced snare drumming.
I also drew inspiration from the flashcard program SuperMemo which relies on an algorithm to appropriate time for the daily review of facts (input info, review daily, depending on how well you know the stuff the program will make you review it more or less often until it is memorized. Check it out. It's boss.)
How To Use This Tool:
Basically I took all of the basic moves I could thing of (the 'root' moves, so to speak) [see note for explanation of selection process] and put them on one axis of a spread sheet. On the other axis I put a number of fields for variations (reverse, behind the back, anti-spin, isolated, extension, etc.). In the blank fields you enter a 1-5 rating:
1- Basic comprehension
2- Limited ability
3- Confident Ability
4- Flawless execution
5- Intuitive with transitions and variations.
Basically you use this chart to track your progress. 1-2 level moves you will spend the majority of your practice time working on. 3-4 level moves also deserve attention, though somewhat less, and 5 level moves require minimal attention.
You may also attempt to run through the entire ritual, but excluding redundancies, there are about 118030185 potential moves in this set
And in case you missed it, that link again is
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=ro-UnBu7exaUdPswrviRGOw
Discussion:
Having all of the moves laid out in front of you, as well as documentation of my progress has been enormously helpful in making the most out of my practice time. I often forget which moves need attention and which ones I can spend less time on.
That being said, it is incredibly important to work on transitions, general flow, and to have fun with your training. I tend to spend at least 20% of my training time just messing around, trying out combination and working on transition. It's not good to be able to just jump from move to move, but using this training aid can be very helpful in conquering the seemingly insurmountable list of moves.
Notes:
Okay, a word or two about how I selected moves for this list. You may notice some redundancies (for instance BTB weaves have their own category). In some cases I decided to sacrifice consistency for general comfort. Things like BTB weaves which are a massive subset of moves in and of themselves deserved their own category, IMO.
Also you may notice a general absence of wraps/hyperloopishness on this list. This is a personal choice (generally I don't use them much, so I cut them out of my training) and if you think they deserve representation, feel free to edit the document yourself.
Another thing: Most of the moves on this list came from HOP's library because, well, I'm lazy and there's plenty of stuff I need to learn on this list without going to the end of the earth to be comprehensive.
That being said, PLEASE, if you think I missed something fairly major, let me know. I'd like to make this an ongoing project.
Anyway, let me know what you all think. Thanks for all of your wonderful posts, by the way. I don't think spinning (in a global sense) would be the same without this community.
-AB
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Interesting idea.
Will have to have a think about it at some point.
As an aside, I thought triquetras were wall-plane flowers? Well, hybridised wall-plane flowers.
The list would need some extension for my use. Try looking at [Old link] for some more ideas if you like.
Interesting idea.
Will have to have a think about it at some point.
As an aside, I thought triquetras were wall-plane flowers? Well, hybridised wall-plane flowers.
The list would need some extension for my use. Try looking at [Old link] for some more ideas if you like.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Indeed on extension, but you've also got 5 beat and BTB 5 beat listed seperately which is a bit arbitrary because you've got "BTB" as a category in the other column...
Indeed on extension, but you've also got 5 beat and BTB 5 beat listed seperately which is a bit arbitrary because you've got "BTB" as a category in the other column...
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Did not notice that. What would a BTB BTB 3bt weave be?
I would suggest having BTB as a category along the top, even if a number of the things on your Y axis are going to be very difficult BTB, if indeed possible.
Did not notice that. What would a BTB BTB 3bt weave be?
I would suggest having BTB as a category along the top, even if a number of the things on your Y axis are going to be very difficult BTB, if indeed possible.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
SILVER Member
stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: astonDid not notice that. What would a BTB BTB 3bt weave be?
I would suggest having BTB as a category along the top, even if a number of the things on your Y axis are going to be very difficult BTB, if indeed possible.
In my notes I mentioned the issues of redundancy, specifically with certain moves having a BTB category. I did this because something like a BTB weave can be considered its own root move (i.e. you can have all the same permutations behind the back that you do in front of you). I still haven't really fixed the issues that come with stacking certain moves (BTB isolated 5 beat waist wrap, for instance belongs in a number of categories, but the sake of my sanity I didn't bother working out all possible contradictory permutations)
Thanks for the input! I'm trying to reduce needless complication as much as possible
Originally Posted By: astonDid not notice that. What would a BTB BTB 3bt weave be?
I would suggest having BTB as a category along the top, even if a number of the things on your Y axis are going to be very difficult BTB, if indeed possible.
In my notes I mentioned the issues of redundancy, specifically with certain moves having a BTB category. I did this because something like a BTB weave can be considered its own root move (i.e. you can have all the same permutations behind the back that you do in front of you). I still haven't really fixed the issues that come with stacking certain moves (BTB isolated 5 beat waist wrap, for instance belongs in a number of categories, but the sake of my sanity I didn't bother working out all possible contradictory permutations)
Thanks for the input! I'm trying to reduce needless complication as much as possible
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
I think I will have a go at developing one myself. Might be interesting to see where I differ....
I think I will have a go at developing one myself. Might be interesting to see where I differ....
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
The Prodigy
82 posts
82 posts
Posted:
I like this very much!
way too tired to give input atm but i wil when i can
I like this very much!
way too tired to give input atm but i wil when i can
You play with fire,
You're going to get burned.
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Just occurred to me that this is probably better off in the beginner section quite simply because most of the advanced spinners tend to read both forums, but beginner spinners may tend to shy away from the 'advanced' forum. (I know I did when I was a newbie)
This would probably help anyone who wanted to set their practice up that way... but I wouldn't cos I'm too lazy.
Just occurred to me that this is probably better off in the beginner section quite simply because most of the advanced spinners tend to read both forums, but beginner spinners may tend to shy away from the 'advanced' forum. (I know I did when I was a newbie)
This would probably help anyone who wanted to set their practice up that way... but I wouldn't cos I'm too lazy.
stranger
2 posts
2 posts
Posted:
Column "with pirouette" looks fruitful for me
Column "with pirouette" looks fruitful for me
SILVER Member
stranger
13 posts
Location: Cyprus
stranger
13 posts
Location: Cyprus
Posted:
Also for some further info theres a great short section in Zan and Johns E-Poi-dia II with regard practice sessions and structure. Well worth the purchase.
Also for some further info theres a great short section in Zan and Johns E-Poi-dia II with regard practice sessions and structure. Well worth the purchase.
GOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Posted:
I think this chart is a great idea and definitely having a systematized approach to practice is hugely helpful for digesting a lot of information in not a lot of time, but I'm noticing a lot of inconsistencies the the way it is arranged in current form:
Cateyes and triquetras are both by definition antispin. A cateye is also by definition both an extension and an isolation and quite frankly I would love to see anyone do either of these moves under the legs or behind the back--the space required to do them doesn't work particularly well and especially with behind the back, with the limitations of shoulder joints are such that there's a really high chance you would injure yourself trying.
Likewise, I thought that by definition, waist wraps go around, well, the waist. They work by weaving around a center point and there isn't one between the legs...going around the legs, on the other hand, could be considered a variant.
What does an antispin forward hybrid look like? Is it the isolated hand or the extension hand doing antispin? Are we doing this inside a unit circle or expanding it to the triquetra antibrid or even doing full flower hybrids? For more information on this, consult Alien Jon's very detailed post on Tribe about unit circle hybrids: https://techpoi.tribe.net/thread/7d1509cc-1f2b-4448-b2a5-f1ef100ae18e
I hope you can see what I'm getting at here: the way this chart has been mapped out, it's assuming several items as being basic types of motion and others being variants on basic types of motion that perhaps are not as universal as you're thinking. Might I recommend something closer to the framework of imagining all the ways the poi heads can move relative to the hands and each other and mapping out each of these movements in all variations of wall plane, wheel plane, inspin, inverted and introverted planes, etc? What I think you're really talking about here is all the basic ways poi can move and where around the body one can place these movements. For instance, a lot of folks have started talking about crossers, weaves, and airwraps/hyperloops as all being variants on the same idea at different points of contact with fountains being a weave applied at waistwrap and windmill positions.
Like I said, I think this is a great idea and I'm totally down with a systematized approach to learning like this, but I think it might be more helpful to examine how the tricks relate to each other rather than how they relate to your body in arranging them.
I think this chart is a great idea and definitely having a systematized approach to practice is hugely helpful for digesting a lot of information in not a lot of time, but I'm noticing a lot of inconsistencies the the way it is arranged in current form:
Cateyes and triquetras are both by definition antispin. A cateye is also by definition both an extension and an isolation and quite frankly I would love to see anyone do either of these moves under the legs or behind the back--the space required to do them doesn't work particularly well and especially with behind the back, with the limitations of shoulder joints are such that there's a really high chance you would injure yourself trying.
Likewise, I thought that by definition, waist wraps go around, well, the waist. They work by weaving around a center point and there isn't one between the legs...going around the legs, on the other hand, could be considered a variant.
What does an antispin forward hybrid look like? Is it the isolated hand or the extension hand doing antispin? Are we doing this inside a unit circle or expanding it to the triquetra antibrid or even doing full flower hybrids? For more information on this, consult Alien Jon's very detailed post on Tribe about unit circle hybrids: https://techpoi.tribe.net/thread/7d1509cc-1f2b-4448-b2a5-f1ef100ae18e
I hope you can see what I'm getting at here: the way this chart has been mapped out, it's assuming several items as being basic types of motion and others being variants on basic types of motion that perhaps are not as universal as you're thinking. Might I recommend something closer to the framework of imagining all the ways the poi heads can move relative to the hands and each other and mapping out each of these movements in all variations of wall plane, wheel plane, inspin, inverted and introverted planes, etc? What I think you're really talking about here is all the basic ways poi can move and where around the body one can place these movements. For instance, a lot of folks have started talking about crossers, weaves, and airwraps/hyperloops as all being variants on the same idea at different points of contact with fountains being a weave applied at waistwrap and windmill positions.
Like I said, I think this is a great idea and I'm totally down with a systematized approach to learning like this, but I think it might be more helpful to examine how the tricks relate to each other rather than how they relate to your body in arranging them.
Peace,
Drex
SILVER Member
stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
stranger
3 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Drex (and others),
I think you've articulated an issue a lot of people are seeing (myself included) with this beta version of my chart-method.
Allow me to explain my thought process:
My original plan in revamping my practice regiment was to simply write down every move I could think of and then check it off the list when I learned it. Problems with this are:
a. Lacks an incremental approach, which is essential. Without a gradual system for learning, it is difficult to efficiently manage one's time in practice. Instead of making it a goal to master a single hard move in one session (frustrating), one aims to have "leveled up" in a number of moves by the end of a session.
b. It is VERY difficult to accurately list every poi move. Furthermore, it's not all that necessary to effective practice.
This second problem obviously still exists with the chart. There are things missing entirely and there are a great number of redundancies. My original solution for the latter problem was to put an X where something did not apply (i.e. anti-spin triquetras or cat eyes). This means a large number of the moves have Xs in most of the columns (especially "under the legs"). Also I came up with problems with hybrids... frankly I don't know how to wrap my mind around that
Using this system helped balance out the inconsistencies, and I think for now, it will do as a training aid for me personally. It still doesn't fix the tricky problem of quantifying the movements one can make with one's poi of course, and I will think about idea of using the poi/spinner relationship as the basis for the chart. Thanks for the suggestion!
-AB
Drex (and others),
I think you've articulated an issue a lot of people are seeing (myself included) with this beta version of my chart-method.
Allow me to explain my thought process:
My original plan in revamping my practice regiment was to simply write down every move I could think of and then check it off the list when I learned it. Problems with this are:
a. Lacks an incremental approach, which is essential. Without a gradual system for learning, it is difficult to efficiently manage one's time in practice. Instead of making it a goal to master a single hard move in one session (frustrating), one aims to have "leveled up" in a number of moves by the end of a session.
b. It is VERY difficult to accurately list every poi move. Furthermore, it's not all that necessary to effective practice.
This second problem obviously still exists with the chart. There are things missing entirely and there are a great number of redundancies. My original solution for the latter problem was to put an X where something did not apply (i.e. anti-spin triquetras or cat eyes). This means a large number of the moves have Xs in most of the columns (especially "under the legs"). Also I came up with problems with hybrids... frankly I don't know how to wrap my mind around that
Using this system helped balance out the inconsistencies, and I think for now, it will do as a training aid for me personally. It still doesn't fix the tricky problem of quantifying the movements one can make with one's poi of course, and I will think about idea of using the poi/spinner relationship as the basis for the chart. Thanks for the suggestion!
-AB
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