Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Drex's hybrid theory
Login/Join to Participateaddict
413 posts
413 posts
Posted:
What is a hybrid?:
Quote:Hybrid is a not a combination of two driving styles, but any combination of movements in which Poi and hand are not in the same combination of timing and direction.
This is very controversal definition
!
-----------------------
FORE MORE:
-Insingnia's hybrid
-Composites
-Hybrid symmetricity
-----------------------
https://drexfactor.com
-----------------------
All right,I need deeper forensic analysis againts previous core
spinning rules to avoid loops and cross-definitions..
.
DREX!
ps: Insignia's FB post anyone?
What is a hybrid?:
Quote:Hybrid is a not a combination of two driving styles, but any combination of movements in which Poi and hand are not in the same combination of timing and direction.
This is very controversal definition
!-----------------------
FORE MORE:
-Insingnia's hybrid
-Composites
-Hybrid symmetricity
-----------------------
https://drexfactor.com
-----------------------
All right,I need deeper forensic analysis againts previous core
spinning rules to avoid loops and cross-definitions..
.DREX!
ps: Insignia's FB post anyone?
GOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Posted:
This is the definition of a CAP as provided by the guy (Zaltymbunk) who invented the term:
Originally Posted By: ZaltymbunkAs the brain have two independent hemispheres ... there 2 processes of motion creation in spinning fields.
One of these is the process of patterns superposition with the two hands/poïs ... which refers to the parallel/simultaneous information treatment of the left part of the brain. The results of this process is what is commonly call : Hybrids.
The other one is the process of elementary patterns assembly (obviously drawn with one poï) ..; which refers to the serial/sequencial information treatment of the rightpart of the brain. he results of this process is what is commonly call : CAPs.
A CAP ... or complex pattern ... must as well be cyclic ... and can be the assembly of 2 (or more) elementary patterns iterated one (or more) time.
It's explained in greater detail in this post: [Old link]
In other words, CAPs and hybrids represent two different means of superimposing patterns upon each other. In the case of CAPs, it is done in series while with hybrids it's done in a parallel fashion. A hybrid, then, is not a "double CAP" as sequentially we can arrange pieces that do not create contrasting shapes in parallel--for example if both poi and hands are moving in the same symmetry simultaneously (both opposites or both same direction) in which case the parallel shapes are identical even as we switch our move in sequence. CAPS and hybrids represent a Venn diagram of contrast, then, that occasionally overlaps but represent two distinct and unique ideas.
@Tankboy: It totally depends on the intention of the handpath. Two examples: triquetra vs pendulum where there is a unit circle distance between the pendulum and antispinning hand or Ronan's pendulum vs CAP hybrid. As long as the non-pendulum move is sufficiently slow you can really combine pendulum with anything. Other examples: cateye vs pendulum, extension vs pendulum. I did a video on many of these tricks here:
Edit: Tank, I think I may have mistook your point in the above. If you're asking what I think you're asking, then yes there should be a hand/poi variant for every hand/hand pendulum-based hybrid.
@Mother_Natures_Son: hand/hand examples: triquetra vs extension (the mercedes), cateye vs extension, triquetra vs pendulum, etc. In each case the hands share the same path, though they do not have to be at the same place on the path to qualify. The relationship between them can be thought of as derivative of any of the four major combinations of timing and direction and each will yield a unique "flavor" of the particular hybrid as contrasting shapes coalesce at different points in the cycle.
EDITED_BY: DrexFactor (1276700742)
EDIT_REASON: May have mistook the intent of the post I was replying to
This is the definition of a CAP as provided by the guy (Zaltymbunk) who invented the term:
Originally Posted By: ZaltymbunkAs the brain have two independent hemispheres ... there 2 processes of motion creation in spinning fields.
One of these is the process of patterns superposition with the two hands/poïs ... which refers to the parallel/simultaneous information treatment of the left part of the brain. The results of this process is what is commonly call : Hybrids.
The other one is the process of elementary patterns assembly (obviously drawn with one poï) ..; which refers to the serial/sequencial information treatment of the rightpart of the brain. he results of this process is what is commonly call : CAPs.
A CAP ... or complex pattern ... must as well be cyclic ... and can be the assembly of 2 (or more) elementary patterns iterated one (or more) time.
It's explained in greater detail in this post: [Old link]
In other words, CAPs and hybrids represent two different means of superimposing patterns upon each other. In the case of CAPs, it is done in series while with hybrids it's done in a parallel fashion. A hybrid, then, is not a "double CAP" as sequentially we can arrange pieces that do not create contrasting shapes in parallel--for example if both poi and hands are moving in the same symmetry simultaneously (both opposites or both same direction) in which case the parallel shapes are identical even as we switch our move in sequence. CAPS and hybrids represent a Venn diagram of contrast, then, that occasionally overlaps but represent two distinct and unique ideas.
@Tankboy: It totally depends on the intention of the handpath. Two examples: triquetra vs pendulum where there is a unit circle distance between the pendulum and antispinning hand or Ronan's pendulum vs CAP hybrid. As long as the non-pendulum move is sufficiently slow you can really combine pendulum with anything. Other examples: cateye vs pendulum, extension vs pendulum. I did a video on many of these tricks here:
Edit: Tank, I think I may have mistook your point in the above. If you're asking what I think you're asking, then yes there should be a hand/poi variant for every hand/hand pendulum-based hybrid.
@Mother_Natures_Son: hand/hand examples: triquetra vs extension (the mercedes), cateye vs extension, triquetra vs pendulum, etc. In each case the hands share the same path, though they do not have to be at the same place on the path to qualify. The relationship between them can be thought of as derivative of any of the four major combinations of timing and direction and each will yield a unique "flavor" of the particular hybrid as contrasting shapes coalesce at different points in the cycle.
EDITED_BY: DrexFactor (1276700742)
EDIT_REASON: May have mistook the intent of the post I was replying to
Peace,
Drex
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
My "hand/hand" comment was in response to Tankboy whose comment I read seemed to imply that there head to be a hand/head interaction.
I replied with "hand/hand" quite simply to state that hand/hand was an option that would allow pendulums to fit into the rule.
My "hand/hand" comment was in response to Tankboy whose comment I read seemed to imply that there head to be a hand/head interaction.
I replied with "hand/hand" quite simply to state that hand/hand was an option that would allow pendulums to fit into the rule.
addict
413 posts
413 posts
Posted:
I the Russel's video he says:
Quote:
..CAP circle extension with 3 petal anti-spin..
I think, it's correctly 1/2 = CAP circle, pendulum 1/2 circle,exetended by anti-spin..
So, the CAP originaly reffere to "assemble pattern" that
for sure it is, but visualy reffere to half circle motion
as first show by Maelle in Romaro video or by Yuta,
also described as paracircle.
I want more !
I the Russel's video he says:
Quote:
..CAP circle extension with 3 petal anti-spin..
I think, it's correctly 1/2 = CAP circle, pendulum 1/2 circle,exetended by anti-spin..
So, the CAP originaly reffere to "assemble pattern" that
for sure it is, but visualy reffere to half circle motion
as first show by Maelle in Romaro video or by Yuta,
also described as paracircle.
I want more
! addict
413 posts
413 posts
Posted:
All right, I've reallized that one hand can compose CAP,
but one hand can't compose extended cat-eye.
What does in meen, it's composite?
All right, I've reallized that one hand can compose CAP,
but one hand can't compose extended cat-eye.
What does in meen, it's composite?
GOLD Member
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
owner of the group property
1,277 posts
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posted:
(not that anyone's holding their breath, but I haven't forgotten about this thread. Still processing the influx of stuff from Drex, and am also picking up enough group theory to address symmetry formally. [Also bringing in some category theory since I think we may not be after symmetry, but something better handled by groupoids.] Anyone's guess when the follow-up posts will be, though.)
(not that anyone's holding their breath, but I haven't forgotten about this thread. Still processing the influx of stuff from Drex, and am also picking up enough group theory to address symmetry formally. [Also bringing in some category theory since I think we may not be after symmetry, but something better handled by groupoids.] Anyone's guess when the follow-up posts will be, though.)
p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s
GOLD Member
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
enthusiast
290 posts
Location: Everywhere, USA
Posted:
I just found this thread.... weeee!
Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven(not that anyone's holding their breath, but I haven't forgotten about this thread. Still processing the influx of stuff from Drex, and am also picking up enough group theory to address symmetry formally. [Also bringing in some category theory since I think we may not be after symmetry, but something better handled by groupoids.] Anyone's guess when the follow-up posts will be, though.)
Sister Eleven, I'd love to discuss my concept of symmetry in poi with you, and hear what you have to say about group theory!
That said, I think this issue of a clear definition of Hybrid has gone round and round as Ed said. As has what a CAP is. If we keep focusing on the trees we will miss the forrest.
Here is the bigger picture: The people posting in this thread are all exploring poi and object/body manipulation on a level way beyond what the words (or acronyms) "hybrid" or "CAP", and their attempted definitions thus far, can accommodate. So let's stop trying to expand the definitions into complete dilution of specificity.
In 2007, mostly on Tribe.net and my early Youtube simulations, I started using the term "composite"... It started out as an attempt at a new classification for the things that didn't fit neatly into the understanding of hybrid of CAP at the time. What it lead me to was that I needed to majorly upgrade (and dissect) my mental model for the attributes of poi physics. So I started thinking of it more as a way of understanding what I was doing with poi patterns. I was "compositing" samples of other simpler patterns I know together in interesting and harmonic ways. Wile compositing poi patterns, what I was doing could still sometimes be labeled as being like a hybrid and/or CAP.
I will say this that I seem to agree with Damian & Drex on this:
CAPs can be accomplished with only one poi and have to do with sequencing different geometric figures together over time.
Hybrids need 2 poi relating to one another.
At this point I've moved focus beyond just sampling elements of other poi patterns and have been focused on better understanding the physics and geometry of what we do on a more fundamental level, like understanding music synthesis from the sine-wave on up.
There is a trend in poi towards "movement synthesis", in the same spirit as the development of electronic music syntheses. It is no longer as simple as talking about what musical instrument is playing what notes, or even what samples of what instruments you are arranging together. There is enough understanding of manipulating the physics of sound to both synthesis an instrument's wave producing attributes, and isolate/tweak those attributes until you have morphed the character of that instrument's sound into something completely different. When does a piano sound stop sounding like a piano and start sounding like a guitar, when you are making subtle changes to different sonic attributes?
The same is true for poi.
Out of all the possible sequences of all the possible additive sine-waves that can be expressed in sound, most of it sounds like noise and cacophony, too chaotic for us to discern pattern let alone beauty. The same is true for the possible sequences of human body movement, as well as the graph over time of 2 spinning objects.
We find something intriguing and beautiful where we find patterns, repetition, cycles, and harmonic proportions.
So let's stop talking about hybrids and CAPs, and lets start talking about movement synthesis. Lets upgrade our collective mental models of a few things:
A) How our bodies can move effectively & and safely in expressive ways.
B) The physics of how we create interesting geometric proportions and relations expressed by spinning objects over time.
C) Finding the Sweet-spots where A & B work together in harmony.
C is the collection of what we find interesting about poi.
For the past couple of years I've been increasingly breaking everything down into 1D oscillatory components. Then looking at the symmetries that can be observed in the 3D + T combinations of those oscillators as representative of what we do with poi.
I need a breather but I'm going to start another thread as a forum to discus where I'm at in modeling these ideas. I'll link to from here it soon.
*UPDATE* I started a related thread called [Old link]
EDITED_BY: AlienJon (1278194130)
EDIT_REASON: added link
I just found this thread.... weeee!
Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven(not that anyone's holding their breath, but I haven't forgotten about this thread. Still processing the influx of stuff from Drex, and am also picking up enough group theory to address symmetry formally. [Also bringing in some category theory since I think we may not be after symmetry, but something better handled by groupoids.] Anyone's guess when the follow-up posts will be, though.)
Sister Eleven, I'd love to discuss my concept of symmetry in poi with you, and hear what you have to say about group theory!
That said, I think this issue of a clear definition of Hybrid has gone round and round as Ed said. As has what a CAP is. If we keep focusing on the trees we will miss the forrest.
Here is the bigger picture: The people posting in this thread are all exploring poi and object/body manipulation on a level way beyond what the words (or acronyms) "hybrid" or "CAP", and their attempted definitions thus far, can accommodate. So let's stop trying to expand the definitions into complete dilution of specificity.
In 2007, mostly on Tribe.net and my early Youtube simulations, I started using the term "composite"... It started out as an attempt at a new classification for the things that didn't fit neatly into the understanding of hybrid of CAP at the time. What it lead me to was that I needed to majorly upgrade (and dissect) my mental model for the attributes of poi physics. So I started thinking of it more as a way of understanding what I was doing with poi patterns. I was "compositing" samples of other simpler patterns I know together in interesting and harmonic ways. Wile compositing poi patterns, what I was doing could still sometimes be labeled as being like a hybrid and/or CAP.
I will say this that I seem to agree with Damian & Drex on this:
CAPs can be accomplished with only one poi and have to do with sequencing different geometric figures together over time.
Hybrids need 2 poi relating to one another.
At this point I've moved focus beyond just sampling elements of other poi patterns and have been focused on better understanding the physics and geometry of what we do on a more fundamental level, like understanding music synthesis from the sine-wave on up.
There is a trend in poi towards "movement synthesis", in the same spirit as the development of electronic music syntheses. It is no longer as simple as talking about what musical instrument is playing what notes, or even what samples of what instruments you are arranging together. There is enough understanding of manipulating the physics of sound to both synthesis an instrument's wave producing attributes, and isolate/tweak those attributes until you have morphed the character of that instrument's sound into something completely different. When does a piano sound stop sounding like a piano and start sounding like a guitar, when you are making subtle changes to different sonic attributes?
The same is true for poi.
Out of all the possible sequences of all the possible additive sine-waves that can be expressed in sound, most of it sounds like noise and cacophony, too chaotic for us to discern pattern let alone beauty. The same is true for the possible sequences of human body movement, as well as the graph over time of 2 spinning objects.
We find something intriguing and beautiful where we find patterns, repetition, cycles, and harmonic proportions.
So let's stop talking about hybrids and CAPs, and lets start talking about movement synthesis. Lets upgrade our collective mental models of a few things:
A) How our bodies can move effectively & and safely in expressive ways.
B) The physics of how we create interesting geometric proportions and relations expressed by spinning objects over time.
C) Finding the Sweet-spots where A & B work together in harmony.
C is the collection of what we find interesting about poi.
For the past couple of years I've been increasingly breaking everything down into 1D oscillatory components. Then looking at the symmetries that can be observed in the 3D + T combinations of those oscillators as representative of what we do with poi.
I need a breather but I'm going to start another thread as a forum to discus where I'm at in modeling these ideas. I'll link to from here it soon.
*UPDATE* I started a related thread called [Old link]
EDITED_BY: AlienJon (1278194130)
EDIT_REASON: added link
+Alien Jon
Trochoïd Master
38 posts
Location: Angers, France
38 posts
Location: Angers, France
Posted:
Hey Jon once again we seem to have a similar mindset !
Since we met at BM in 2007, i have as well pushed further my researches and i am actually finalizing a "spinning" notation which is basically an kind of analogy of music theory. Basically, this is an extension of what i mentionned in this [Old link] a few monthes ago.
I am close to get to the point of a direct conversion between the music notation (mostly rythmes) and the spinning patterns. Again, for instance nothing is really layed on paper (I just did a few workshops at the National French Juggling Convention last week) but as i'll have time this summer all of this could emerge soon (i hope).
The notation (called SPLIN) can be computable on a simulator (working with Flash AS for instance). I am restructuring my initial version in an object oriented one ... that's why it has not been released so far.
Originally Posted By: Unregistered
So, the CAP originaly reffere to "assemble pattern" that
for sure it is, but visualy reffere to half circle motion
as first show by Maelle in Romaro video or by Yuta,
also described as paracircle.
Hey Unregistred here is a link about the notion of " [Old link]", as i am not sure of your definition below. If you have any question let me know.
Tschüss.
Zalty.
Hey Jon once again we seem to have a similar mindset !
Since we met at BM in 2007, i have as well pushed further my researches and i am actually finalizing a "spinning" notation which is basically an kind of analogy of music theory. Basically, this is an extension of what i mentionned in this [Old link] a few monthes ago.
I am close to get to the point of a direct conversion between the music notation (mostly rythmes) and the spinning patterns. Again, for instance nothing is really layed on paper (I just did a few workshops at the National French Juggling Convention last week) but as i'll have time this summer all of this could emerge soon (i hope).
The notation (called SPLIN) can be computable on a simulator (working with Flash AS for instance). I am restructuring my initial version in an object oriented one ... that's why it has not been released so far.
Originally Posted By: Unregistered
So, the CAP originaly reffere to "assemble pattern" that
for sure it is, but visualy reffere to half circle motion
as first show by Maelle in Romaro video or by Yuta,
also described as paracircle.
Hey Unregistred here is a link about the notion of " [Old link]", as i am not sure of your definition below. If you have any question let me know.
Tschüss.
Zalty.
Have a good One !
GOLD Member
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Defeats the purpose
73 posts
Location: Washington, DC USA
Posted:
Originally Posted By: ZaltymbunkI am close to get to the point of a direct conversion between the music notation (mostly rythmes) and the spinning patterns. Again, for instance nothing is really layed on paper (I just did a few workshops at the National French Juggling Convention last week) but as i'll have time this summer all of this could emerge soon (i hope).
The notation (called SPLIN) can be computable on a simulator (working with Flash AS for instance). I am restructuring my initial version in an object oriented one ... that's why it has not been released so far.
*droooool*
Wow...I would love love love to take a look at this. A primary goal of mine when I started dissecting hybrids and their ilk was to come out of it with a system of poi notation that would be universal enough to not just describe the movements we currently had access to, but all their derivatives we hadn't seen yet. It sounds here like you have a vast head-start on me. Anything I can do to help you shepherd this to something that can be posted/shared?
Originally Posted By: ZaltymbunkI am close to get to the point of a direct conversion between the music notation (mostly rythmes) and the spinning patterns. Again, for instance nothing is really layed on paper (I just did a few workshops at the National French Juggling Convention last week) but as i'll have time this summer all of this could emerge soon (i hope).
The notation (called SPLIN) can be computable on a simulator (working with Flash AS for instance). I am restructuring my initial version in an object oriented one ... that's why it has not been released so far.
*droooool*
Wow...I would love love love to take a look at this. A primary goal of mine when I started dissecting hybrids and their ilk was to come out of it with a system of poi notation that would be universal enough to not just describe the movements we currently had access to, but all their derivatives we hadn't seen yet. It sounds here like you have a vast head-start on me. Anything I can do to help you shepherd this to something that can be posted/shared?
Peace,
Drex
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