Forums > Social Chat > martial arts styles

Posted: 12th Jan 2001
That is an awesome Idea! We use Tai Chi movements in some of the choreography that we do. A staff twirler just joined our group who comes froma martial arts background. He worked with the staff as a weapon in Karate I think? And now uses those lessons to spin a staff with fire.I was in Minnesota a while back and I have a good friend there who is a national black belt champion in the Juditsu Style (again I think?). I was showing him my poi and what I can do with them and he took them and started doing everything that I could, come to find out he has these HUGE knives that he spins in the same fashion.There are so many positive things that I believe almost any martial arts form except maybe for Drunken MAster style could add to your abilities!!Donia"Whre there is sorrow, I seek the flame."Rumi

Donia Love
Ignis Devoco Industrial Fire Circus

Where there is sorrow, I seek the flame.
Rumi

Posted: 12th Jan 2001
Tai Chi movements, when sped up are actual defense martail arts movements and so could be good. Then again I think Tai Chi is simply wonderful...if slowed with long poi is would be graceful and flowy when sped up with short poi is would look very flashy.Yoga poses can be used to give a crowd a real mind bender...I do this as well. I used to take Tae Kwon Do and I hated everything about it. I don't think that the moves would be gret for poi as they weren't natural feeling and the hands were usually occupied but then again it could've been that I had a bad Kyoshinm....which was my theory all along.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 13th Jan 2001
I saw this martial art on TV called thang ta which comes from Manipur. Thang means sword and ta means spear, and those are the weapons that are used.They twirl two swords in poi like movements, i tried this with two short poles and foud it pretty easy exept u need real flexi wrists.With shiny sword it looks real cool as light reflects off the blades or u could use flaming swords?hope u find this interesting

Posted: 13th Jan 2001
Chinese Wu Shu, along with being one of the most ancient martial arts is just full of interesteng 'toys' that spin and whirl and could be easily adapted to fire spinning.There are more or less 40 weapons in several different sub-systems, family styles, etc. Some of the most easily adaptable 'toys' are the baton, the pole (a favoured weapon), the spear, the tri sectional, the nine-section chain and the rope dart.Most martial arts have some or other 'pole play' and the simpler weapons are quite obviously modified farm impliments (flails, clubs, forks and spades). The 'higher' weapons like swords, spear and halberds would look really impressive if made out of blazing material, hmmm ... a burning Kwan Dao ... that would look excellent !! Or the straight sword ...Admittedly, it's not the sort of stuff you would be learning in the first few years as the moves are, by nature, dangerous.Many martial arts are more of a 'way of life philosophy' than just a set of fancy moves ... They require time and practice (hence the misnomer 'Kung Fu')I thouroughly recomend martial arts as a supplement to, well, everything. However it is a serious commitment. You can expect to go through a few teachers before you finally settle on one you can work with. It helps if you have a clear idea in your head of what you want to get out of it and SPEAK to as many people as possible before you make financial commitments.Ask the teachers if they do weapons in their system. Ask how long it takes before you learn your first weapon. You may just find an agreeable chap who can customise lessons just for you, it is an industry after all.Look for schools with good cardiovacular workouts and safe stretching routines. Watch out for and avoid Gung Ho types and "fast food martial arts (tasty but minimally nutritious)". Consult a quack before doing hectic exercise, the usual cautions apply ...Tai Chi is often referred to as a 'soft' or 'internal', meditative form which compliments the study of a 'hard' or 'external' form like Wing Chun or Lin Wan Kuen- which would be your combat moves.An anology given as to what the Wu Shu stylist should try to achieve when flowing through his/her forms: 'The fists and feet should swing as though rocks had been fastened to them with ropes'- just what your after, hey ?Rent some Jet Li Movies like The Shaolin Temple or Fong Sai Yuk, and some early Jackie Chan movies, compare the styles ...I wish you luck and hope the martial arts bug bites, it's a kick ass way to stay in shape ...Bish

Hasst du etwas zeit fuer mich?... Dan singe ich ein lied fuer dich ... -Bjork/Nena

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 15th Jan 2001
Nice run down on the Wu Shu, thanks! :)I'd just like to add, that you should probly avoid direct striking martial arts (Kick Boxing for eg), in favour of rounder styles, that encorporate more circular movement Tai Chi perhaps? I have always done Styles which are more direct; Wing Chun, Freestyle Karate and Ninjitsu - which have elements of roundness (roundhouse kicks, spinning backfists cross blocking etc etc) but the emphasis is on Direct combative technique, and the mindstate needed to move through the combat situation successfully.If you were considering starting a style to specifically improve your twirling, then I suggest;1) Join a style that starts you on weapons early on in your studies, in Adelaide we have a style specifically for Bo / Jo (short and long) Staff. Where you pick up your staff in the first lesson. The name of this style escapes me, although I know that such styles exist all over the world. 2) Watch a class before joining it. Talk to the teacher about what you want. If you want weapons, say so and say why. Then come back when they are conducting a weapons class...you might be surprised at the *lack* of weapons skill taught in classes around the place...If it doesnt suit you...keep looking. Just as there are less than properly skilled teachers, there are also many great teachers with all different styles.3) See the value of Martial Arts not just in terms of learning new tricks. sure I have learnt many tricks and the theory behind lots of twirling and other weapons in class...but for me the most valuable thing I have taken with me from the dojo has been the ability to drop into a mindset which will allow me to flow through my movements with no effort, and no thought. (although I dont always poi this way).4) Look for the style of teaching. Will the teaching techniques you will be exposed to in the class allow you to go away from class and teach yourself new moves? Will you be better able to look at the new moves section and practice them for having participated in this class? Will you be more able to teach others your moves?Dont be surprised if there is a large difference in the cost of a class between schools...but remember, not everyone is in it to make a buck. Some gifted teachers still want to pass on their knowledge to eager students. I know that having great students is the best thing when teaching martial arts, and that the money is a far second to this (at least for me).If you get into it, and stick with it, I guarantee it will change your life :)good luck,Josh

Posted: 15th Jan 2001
I've done Tae-Kwon Doe, and little bits of : Tai-Chi, Kobudo (more than a little), kendo, and judo. I can definitley say that since kobudo is almost strictly weapons, it would be a good place to start out. Also, yes Tai-Chi would be very helpful, although you must have LOTS of patients with it, as it moves rather slow. Kobudo, as I progressed through it, went from bo staff, to tonfa (like the sticks some cops carry in the US), to Sai (three pronged fork thingies), to nunchuka. I think because I did all this so long, poi and staff pretty much came naturally. Just look in your area, this is the kind of thing you want to be taught. Yes, it can be self-taught, but there are all sorts of little intricacies that a good instructor will know. I once spent 3 hours doing the same spin move because my instructor said it wasn't correct. After that, they came a bit easier. Good luck!-PSM

One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind.-Alphonse Bertillon

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
I just want to say that I like this discussion

NY FirebatsA shirt that is soaked in fuel burns very nicely. - Not By Me

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
As soon as i picked up my poi, i looked directly towards kung fu for movement comparisons, and all the weapons mentioned in Wushu i already thought of using, but in using them they'll require a heavy amount of modification to weapon construction and move improvisation. After all, if the rope dart must be wrapped about your body, do you really expect to do that if part of the rope is lit, or grab the dart head after all that winding? it's a hell of a lot of improvisation, and i've already begun looking through it all But with nunchaku, i think 14" chucks would be a better option (more grip space)also for the person who posted about making sure you can teach other people...why do you think there's so many UNQUALIFIED teachers out there? it's because they think they can teach somebody ELSE even though THEY barely started. It's ok to say "i think ", but dont think you know what you're doing, because you may be missing a detail about a given move because your sifu, sensei, or master hadn't told you yet. I'm not saying you can't help someone, just dont expect to teach what you learned last week to someone that just joined this week. And about learning a move by watching...most schools discourage that, because you're only learned via ONE sense, sight. You could be missing out on important details said verbally, or small adjustments in stance and application done by the teacher. And usually, 90% of the time it's considered disrespecting the school by doing that. The exact reason for disrespect escapes me at the moment, but you can figure it out Don't get me wrong though, that's how a lot of kung fu was learned back in the day. After all, imitation is the greatest form of flattery!Good Luck and Good Fortune on your path to martial arts

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
"You may just find an agreeable chap who can customise lessons just for you, it is an industry after all."This statement REALLY gets to me, since I take things along this line personally. It's teachers who are in it for the buck that make me sick. Martial Arts are not about how much money you can make. If I have to explain why, maybe MA isn't exactly for you. If you still can't figure out why, then ask yourself, if you teach poi to a friend, or a stranger, do you expect to profit in the end?Martial Arts is not an INDUSTRY, it does not churn out students in hopes of making a buck in the name of whatever style. It may want to make more a of a name for itself, but does it really HAVE to? Look at its popularity, and how little effort it took, as opposed to say, Football or Basketball. It may have entered mainstream culture a bit, but it's still "underground", if you will. Yet it's still growing in popularity, and without nearly as much exposure as said sports. Do you really think they're all in it for the buck?

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
eh, i'm done venting. sorry guys. if anybody wants to join up with my friends and i for practicing poi or weapons-oriented fireplay in the nyc area, just email me or Alexlexex. He's somewhere around these posts...

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
To the person who said;make sure you dont learn how to pass on your poi moves.yeah whatever man.Have you ever taught any physical skills?If you have, I'm sure you would realise that through codifying the skill enough so that you can successfully pass it on to another, improves your own skill...as well as extends the skills of your student.I'm not talking about teaching your friends how to do a particular throw...after you only just learned it 2 hours ago..I'm talking about applying the teaching technique your sifu / master / sensei / sempai / whatever is using, not teaching the whole style! I'm talking about passing on Poi moves dammit! :)and by the way - if you cant teach a low kyu technique by the time you are holding a high kyu - then you shouldnt hold that high kyu...simple as that...As you improve, so does your understanding of technique. I have continued to improve the very first techniques I learned, and thus, I have improved my teaching of those techniques. However I wouldnt expect a white belt student to have the same profficiency in a given technique as a black belt, and so I will apply many more details to the refinement of the black belts technique. Horses for Courses! Teaching a martial arts style as a whole is something best left for a Master...especially if you have only been doing it for a few months - and so in that case - I agree with you. However not analysing the teaching technique of your teacher - is sure fire way to create a dependence on that teacher. you will never be able to exceed what they are able to teach you. You must learn how to learn.Martial Arts knowledge is limitless. Your Sifu doesnt have perfect technique (although they may be very very good). Any Sifu that says they have perfect technique is to be avoided. nobody does. Learning how to tell what makes up a good movement - combo - whatever, and how to train towards performing that essential technique is what I stive for in Martial Arts. Not just perfect imitation. and this is how my Sensei has taught me.The reason there are so many unqualified teachers out there, is because so many ppl dont know what to look for in a martial arts teacher! (or school) and so they accept any old crap. If everyone knew what constituted good technique and style, well - there wouldnt be as many crap teachers cuz they couldnt stay in business.Sorry ppls - couldnt let that one slide.------------------[Josh][Sound beams producing arcs of light]

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
hah, i welcome such a retort. it means you're not like every other martial moron (no insult intended). i can't stand people who take a style over and over and over, and never LEARN from it. I dont mean learning the form, the kata, movement, whatever. i mean exactly what you mean, learning to learn.And as for taking "any old crap", is not martial arts in itself "old crap"? It's not that they take any other old crap, it's that they take anything supposedly backed up by old crap.In NYC, there's a chain of schools here run by Tiger Schullman. From what I've heard, he couldn't finish (or wait to finish, forget) the style he was taking, so he left, formed his own school, and made himself grandmaster. it really bothers me, but what can you do, eh?I'd like to say more, but i'm getting sleepy, and my mind is slowing down...email me sometime if you'd like to discuss martial arts a bit more Josh. --------------------RymelNYC FirebatsPoi, Staff, Nunchaku

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
:)good to see we are on the same wavelength!as I was composing that moster post, you wrote your other one (about industry -> commercialisation of knowledge) and I fully agree with that.Yeah - its really crap when ppl put themselves in as grandmasters of a new style, that way absolving themselves of having to earn any respect...Nice to have someone else to assist me in thinking about this stuff. thanks!Seeya,Josh

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
this vid was recomended to me my flash firehttps://192.41.49.155/movie/kilik-its about 8mb, but its the best vid i have downloaded, its from one of those combat games and his wepon is a staff, its an intro to his moves, serious awsome, worth the download. might have a few of those martial art moves your afterok, so i tried to use that link and it didnt work, i dont get it, i cut n paste from the other topic, well if u want to see the vid, look in the post with the Topic: any mad staff tricks? and scroll down to flash fire somewhere, it should be in there[This message has been edited by smitty (edited 01 February 2001).]

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
Actually, I posted a link to that site in this forum a long time ago. I stumbled across it looking for images of ivy (one of hte character inthe game's name is Ivy, hence the trail). Some of her moves with the rope sword can easily be translated into chain (with one hand at least). Yeah, I want to be able to do whatthe staff guy does. I can do some of it, but wish I could slow it down to frame-by-frame. Anyone know how to do that???------------------Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
to slow down a Quicktime / AVI / MPEG.findn yourself a copy of an app called After Effects. It's quite complex, but if all you want to do is slow down the movie, it will help you. It can also (I think) add in tweened frames, so you dont get the stutter effect.On the new Macs just coming out now there is an app called Final Cut. that will do the same thing. I think you could also do it with Adobe Premiere.All of these apps will require you to learn a little bit about em.On the other hand - I think if you import the movie into Macromedia Flash (has to be Quicktime format I think) you can set the playback rate - not sure on that...I'm pretty sure you can do it with Macromedia Director...but you would have to be familiar with it...hmmm....I bet I'm missing a really easy way to do that...there may be a shareware app that will do that...ok a quick check on shareware.com turned up this;https://shareware.cnet.com/shareware/0-13628-500-2257725.html?tag=st.sa.16165_501_1.lst.titledetailwhich may be best suited to your needs...video tape it and playback on your TV in slowmo? good luck...------------------[Josh][Sound beams producing arcs of light]

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
sorry dangerboy, didnt mean to steal ur link. i havent been here that long and wouldnt of seen that link, but eiter way the vid still rocks, the one i saw was with a staff, is there another one with chains?[This message has been edited by smitty (edited 01 February 2001).]

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
...if anyone is thinking about Tai-Boxing i have to say that it won't help you at all with Poi so don't go for it!!! it is great exercise and fun though (if you don't get too much into it that is ) - although i have only a very very limited experience i would say that Philippino Kali would be helpful for swinging/twirling...please correct me if i am wrong though; oh i miss martial arts a lot ...happy swinging,Simos

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
you could take up 1 of many useful things like....tai-bojazzersizearobicsthats just my $.02

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
Gosh, thanks for the input Jeff I was thinking more along the lines of some full-contact cross-country Aussie rules cross stitching to help me with my chain skills. If you want to see the vid I'm talking aboot that has chain-like stuff, go tohttps://192.41.49.155/movie/ivy-kata1.mpgAs far as finding an appropriate martial art goes, I'm probably going to shelf that for now. I'm planning on travelling to Asia soon, and will likely find some crazy old staff master to take me as his/her padawan learner.------------------Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath, fire my spirit

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
I like this topic and have a story to tell. Two years ago on my way from NZ to Tucson I spent two months on the Island of Maui. My friend Josh is an avid Tai-Chi practicioner, and became intriqued by poi whenever I practiced (which was all the time). He asked me to slow down all the moves, and practice WITHOUT the poi in hand. After doing this for some time I introduced him to Poi-Tai-Chi (for lack of a better word). He in turn taught me Tai-Chi, Yang style. Anyway, after working without poi in hand for a month or so, he picked them up quicker and with greater control than many veteran poi swingers I know. I still do these slow motions, and find it very useful.

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
Ok, Rymel, now that you've calmed down a bit lets just work a few things out here ... ( please, lets not fight)By saying one could find an "agreeable chap" I was implying (since this is a twirling site, not a Martial Art site) a teacher who could show you moves you might use WITHOUT having to train for years and learn, in terms of twirling, unrelated skills.Some folks will not want to join a school as full-on students, just learn skills they can apply to their performances ...Contrary to popular belief (I'm sure we agree here) MA schools are not Secret Societies, Sects or Quasi-Cults.Certain puritanical systems *are* secretive and many schools expressly forbid the showing of techniques to 'outsiders'... Again, the motivation here varies from being elitist to being genuinely cautious when dealing with the public at large, lotta weirdos out there ...This is where my 'agreeable chap' comes in, a teacher who realises that his art is being 'translated' if you will into another form of expression. His style is not being 'bastardised' in any way and I cannot really see how passing on twirling related martial techniques could in any damage Martial Arts' reputation. In a sense you're a special student with special needs and why shouldn't the teacher rise to the challenge ? -For whatever motivation, be it financial or a more lofty ideal of bringing honour to his art ...Which brings me to round two ...You are right, it is not an 'Industry'. I was was wrong to put it like that. Anyone who is in Martial Arts, purely for the financial gain is indeed a discredit to everything MA stands for.I guess what I meant was that in this day and age where the 'Almighty Buck' is king, it's difficult to know how to approach MA.Are you a loyal disciple or are you a paying customer ?It's unrealistic to ignore the fact that in order to survive 'in the main stream', MA has to 'sell' itself. If not it will just be driven further and further underground and become inaccessible to all but a few.As for the burning-Rope-Dart-spontaneous-Richard-Pryor-impersonation, it might be simpler to just use Glow Sticks and fibre optics (you First Worlders sure have a lot of funky toys to play with, heh heh)Bish the DingHey, remember 'Kung Fu', on TV with David Carradine ... ?Sifu: "Close your eyes... Listen for the colour of the sky. Look for the sound of a humming birds wing ... Search the air for the perfume of ice on a hot day. When you have found these things, you will *know* -Do you hear your own heartbeat?"Grasshopper: "No."Sifu : "Do you hear the grasshopper that is at your feet?"Grasshopper: "...Old man, how is it that *you* hear these things?"Sifu: "Young man, how is it that *you* do not ?"

Hasst du etwas zeit fuer mich?... Dan singe ich ein lied fuer dich ... -Bjork/Nena

Posted: 3rd Feb 2001
it's not that you CAN'T learn specifics, it's that most (at least in kung fu) masters dont want to teach weapons first, because that is EXACTLY what most people want out of a given martial art--to be able to swing a weapon around, and once they've mastered it, leave. So, they usually refuse to show you that FIRST, and thus, you learn a fist form or two first. This is also to check a student's dedication to get TO the weapon he would like to learn. It's a way to discourage people like the ones i mentioned up above.Don't get me wrong though, i love weapons, but i won't go into a school and ask because i know the answer is no (believe me, i've tried, for nunchaku and staff). so, if you wanna learn JUST staff and whatnot, just buy the tapes or books(cheaper). you'll be paying around the same price for the classes per month anyway, and you can read/watch it over and over again. They do get pricey though, so if you're gonna do this, make sure it's what you want to do. Alexlexex and I started poi and nunchaku together and with a few other friends, and only we've been able to stick to it so far. Thus, we have no problems purchasing new pairs of nunchaku on a whim, or new books and tapes, even new weapons and whatnot.So if you're gonna go into the whole shpiel of it, think heavily about the costs. Not only for classes if you're going, but for support material, such as a staff for home (you'll end up wanting different pairs, TRUST me), books, videos, etc..Oh, and about the fiber optic idea -- great idea, but that defeats the purpose of calling it FIRE ROPE DART, doesn't it? --------------------RymelNYC FirebatsPoi, Staff, Nunchaku

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

Posted: 3rd Feb 2001
oh, and who's richard pryor?

does it r0x0r j00r b0x0rz?

yes, my pants are quite happy

Posted: 3rd Feb 2001
Interesting to read everyones comments regarding martial arts and twirling, poi etc.I first became interested in twirling through the martial arts, the style I teach being Wing Chun, this I learnt from Sifu Jim Fung his master being Chow Tui Sung Tin and his master who is now dead being the well known Yip Man.You will find that most martial arts styles which use staff actually use very little twirling, the purpose being to keep a firm hold of the staff and not use wasted movement.In Traditional Wing Chun The pole is in the region of 9 ft long about 30cm wide usually made of hard wood, as you can imagine this is pretty heavy.It takes up to 20 yrs to learn the Pole Form it being the last form of the 6 forms in the Wing Chun system, 2 yrs are spent purely in the low horse stance where the student holds the pole and practices the "Huen Sau" movement , this being a wrist turning and strengthing exercise,{this Huen Sau exercise is very good for twirling} the Wing Chun system is based on relaxtion and is not an external style at all, it is about 90 percent a mental artform and should be practiced slower than TaiChi.Wing Chun would benefit twirlers because of its focus on mental concentration, wrist strengthing and flexibility, centreline awareness and initiatian of movement from the centre, also its emphasis on simultaneous movement of up to 3 limbs at once. Some Wing Chun movements such as Bong Sau "Wing Arm" are similar to twirling movements.Basically any martial arts is going to improve your balance and coordination.Any tricks you can pick up by watching may be usefull however copying martial arts movements will not give you power!, this is why in most genuine styles you can not learn weapons first off, "you may have the movement but it takes years to get the power"I recommend those who inspire you to teach you.Regards:13MonkeyKatPS: Want to hook up with Sydney Twirlers, Poi Fire or other, can email at monkeymetal@hotmail.com