Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > Double Staff Weaves
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Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
1b: 1 beat weaves, typically isolated, but don't have to be.
2b: normal figure of eight with the staffs together is a 2b 'weave'. (crossed variations abound...) The aussie weave is a better 2b weave. (a weave with one hand in snake, arms corssed over each other, direct reference to the poi two beat weave) You could probably also do a 2b isolated weave using either an extra beat on only one side, or translations.
3b: The normal three beat weave is where one hand is snaked the other gripped normally on top and they untwist and twist up and change sides of the body with arms crossed. (the staff equivalent of the poi 3b weave.) This weave can be reduced to a twisted two beat or an isolated one beat with a novel hand position.
4b: either: both hands in snake now, or one hand doing one half of a triplespin, the other doing just a normal figure of eight.
5b: One hand in triplespin snake, the other just snaked once.
6b: both hands in triplespin snake.
many many variations I may go into in a little while. (after mo-seph clarifies my brain and I get some work done.)
I'm not going to defend my beat system because it was the one taught to me by mr mo-seph.
1b: 1 beat weaves, typically isolated, but don't have to be.
2b: normal figure of eight with the staffs together is a 2b 'weave'. (crossed variations abound...) The aussie weave is a better 2b weave. (a weave with one hand in snake, arms corssed over each other, direct reference to the poi two beat weave) You could probably also do a 2b isolated weave using either an extra beat on only one side, or translations.
3b: The normal three beat weave is where one hand is snaked the other gripped normally on top and they untwist and twist up and change sides of the body with arms crossed. (the staff equivalent of the poi 3b weave.) This weave can be reduced to a twisted two beat or an isolated one beat with a novel hand position.
4b: either: both hands in snake now, or one hand doing one half of a triplespin, the other doing just a normal figure of eight.
5b: One hand in triplespin snake, the other just snaked once.
6b: both hands in triplespin snake.
many many variations I may go into in a little while. (after mo-seph clarifies my brain and I get some work done.)
I'm not going to defend my beat system because it was the one taught to me by mr mo-seph.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,964 posts
Location: Southampton - Possibly..., United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,964 posts
Location: Southampton - Possibly..., United Kingdom
Posted:
thats good enough for me
i didnt even realise 6beat was possible.......... sounds like it will look as ugly as the poi 7 beat!
Written by: mcp
I'm not going to defend my beat system because it was the one taught to me by mr mo-seph.
thats good enough for me
i didnt even realise 6beat was possible.......... sounds like it will look as ugly as the poi 7 beat!
"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Or for a more generative system:
Start with both staffs parallel and horizontal, left on the bottom, inside of the wrist up, right on top, knuckles up. Before you start, you can put some extra halfbeats/snakes/shotguns on either hand. The left hand can rotate anticlockwise, going into the "front" versions of the shotguns. The right hand goes into the "back" versions of the shotguns.
When the left hand gets one anticlockwise rotation, this is L+, another one is L++, when the RH does a clockwise rotation, this is R-, two is R--.
L+, L++ and R- are all reasonably standard. R-- seems to require a monkey
, and often requires body turning, which limits the possibilites a little
Every halfbeat you add, adds an extra halfbeat to the weave - as each halfbeat has to *unroll* on one side, and then *roll up* on the other side.
All of this is before you start the weave - this is the "point of maximal loc", or POML. From here, you have to take ends of the sticks over in the right way for them to unroll, which generally involves them crossing your body, and possibly your body turning. They will then unroll fully, and roll up on the other side, until the reach POML' - POML on the other side. Continuing this wil bring you back to POML - the starting position.
You can (at least potentially) do any combination of snakes. The "standard" 3 beat weave (meg called it the Antti weave) is L+ - left hand doing one forward snake from the starting point. If you are doing the "canoe isolation" (1 beat with the "great staff" in wheel plane, ends alternating to the left+right of your body) with your pinkies towards the centre, you can go into an L+ 3 beat.
If you're canoeing, but with your thumbs towards the centre (my natural position) you can go into an R- 3 beat; this is the one where each hand comes up under the opposite elbow.
The simplest and least contorted 4beat is then L+,R-. But it's also possible to do L++, and probably R--
The easy 5 beat is L++R-. I don't know about L+R-- : it may be impossible, I've never tried.
A 6 beat is of cours L++R--. And it's actually easier than the 5beat, as the body is being asked to turn the same way by both sticks. However, the centres of rotation have now moved far enough apart that it's a little dubious whether this is recogniseable as a weave
Or for a more generative system:
Start with both staffs parallel and horizontal, left on the bottom, inside of the wrist up, right on top, knuckles up. Before you start, you can put some extra halfbeats/snakes/shotguns on either hand. The left hand can rotate anticlockwise, going into the "front" versions of the shotguns. The right hand goes into the "back" versions of the shotguns.
When the left hand gets one anticlockwise rotation, this is L+, another one is L++, when the RH does a clockwise rotation, this is R-, two is R--.
L+, L++ and R- are all reasonably standard. R-- seems to require a monkey
, and often requires body turning, which limits the possibilites a littleEvery halfbeat you add, adds an extra halfbeat to the weave - as each halfbeat has to *unroll* on one side, and then *roll up* on the other side.
All of this is before you start the weave - this is the "point of maximal loc", or POML. From here, you have to take ends of the sticks over in the right way for them to unroll, which generally involves them crossing your body, and possibly your body turning. They will then unroll fully, and roll up on the other side, until the reach POML' - POML on the other side. Continuing this wil bring you back to POML - the starting position.
You can (at least potentially) do any combination of snakes. The "standard" 3 beat weave (meg called it the Antti weave) is L+ - left hand doing one forward snake from the starting point. If you are doing the "canoe isolation" (1 beat with the "great staff" in wheel plane, ends alternating to the left+right of your body) with your pinkies towards the centre, you can go into an L+ 3 beat.
If you're canoeing, but with your thumbs towards the centre (my natural position) you can go into an R- 3 beat; this is the one where each hand comes up under the opposite elbow.
The simplest and least contorted 4beat is then L+,R-. But it's also possible to do L++, and probably R--
The easy 5 beat is L++R-. I don't know about L+R-- : it may be impossible, I've never tried.
A 6 beat is of cours L++R--. And it's actually easier than the 5beat, as the body is being asked to turn the same way by both sticks. However, the centres of rotation have now moved far enough apart that it's a little dubious whether this is recogniseable as a weave
monkeys ate my brain
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Another possibility is contortions, which have to do with twisting. In order to do a normal 3 beat, you need to untwist your *arms*, and normally, this requires opening your hands to let the staffs ends pass between your wrists, so that the staffs untwist too. If you don't want to do that (handcuff weaves) you enter into contortions.
Start out doing a L+. Now pretend that your hands are handcuffed. You'll find that your right hand ends up coming up under your left wrist (on the left side of your body). Keep it tight in there, and you should be able to move the resulting mess back across your body, where it will untwist, and you can get back to the L+ POML.
This gets you an asymmetric weave - one snake, one contortion, as there is one twist in your arms (or rather in the staff-arm system) which you're maintaining for the whole weave.
If you want, you can do contortions on both sides - you have to open up your wrists, and switch which side of them the staffs are at each side. (Bad description - it'll make sense if you get the basic contortions solid on both sides). For an interesting variation, try doing this open hand switch with straight arms - you'll end up doing a wierd iso-ish thingy with the near ends of the sticks...
So that's a basic contortion. I think there should be a contortion that you can use for half of an R- weave as well - think left arm locked straight down by your side, right wrist behind left, but trying to get in front as it comes back across the body...
It may also be possible to substitute contortions into the higher order weaves.
Another possibility is contortions, which have to do with twisting. In order to do a normal 3 beat, you need to untwist your *arms*, and normally, this requires opening your hands to let the staffs ends pass between your wrists, so that the staffs untwist too. If you don't want to do that (handcuff weaves) you enter into contortions.
Start out doing a L+. Now pretend that your hands are handcuffed. You'll find that your right hand ends up coming up under your left wrist (on the left side of your body). Keep it tight in there, and you should be able to move the resulting mess back across your body, where it will untwist, and you can get back to the L+ POML.
This gets you an asymmetric weave - one snake, one contortion, as there is one twist in your arms (or rather in the staff-arm system) which you're maintaining for the whole weave.
If you want, you can do contortions on both sides - you have to open up your wrists, and switch which side of them the staffs are at each side. (Bad description - it'll make sense if you get the basic contortions solid on both sides). For an interesting variation, try doing this open hand switch with straight arms - you'll end up doing a wierd iso-ish thingy with the near ends of the sticks...
So that's a basic contortion. I think there should be a contortion that you can use for half of an R- weave as well - think left arm locked straight down by your side, right wrist behind left, but trying to get in front as it comes back across the body...
It may also be possible to substitute contortions into the higher order weaves.
monkeys ate my brain
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
okay, I might understand that post. Only cos I understand the movements your referring to. but
for POML. 
Variations on the standard 3b weave, (L+) [antti taught it to me alright! if you had taught it to me, it might have been the mo-seph weave]
Anti-spin, obviously.
One hand BTB (the snaked hand)
the high hand behind the head.
both hands btb / bth respectively.
Turning with one btb is fun.
Doing it longarm is fun.
Going in and out of 2b aussie weaves, two beat normal weaves and one beat isolations.
Doing it with the arms the wrong way round, so that they twist up. (So instead of starting snaked hand underneath, it starts snaked hand above.) This is also fun with longarm.
haven't yet managed to do 3b weave with box anti-spin... but maybe tomorrow...
with higher order weaves it should be possible to not unsnake fully and go into a lower order weave and stay in it partially snaked all the time. I think. If offset weaves hold for sticks...
EDITED_BY: mcp (1153926756)
okay, I might understand that post. Only cos I understand the movements your referring to. but
for POML. Variations on the standard 3b weave, (L+) [antti taught it to me alright! if you had taught it to me, it might have been the mo-seph weave]
Anti-spin, obviously.
One hand BTB (the snaked hand)
the high hand behind the head.
both hands btb / bth respectively.
Turning with one btb is fun.
Doing it longarm is fun.
Going in and out of 2b aussie weaves, two beat normal weaves and one beat isolations.
Doing it with the arms the wrong way round, so that they twist up. (So instead of starting snaked hand underneath, it starts snaked hand above.) This is also fun with longarm.
haven't yet managed to do 3b weave with box anti-spin... but maybe tomorrow...
with higher order weaves it should be possible to not unsnake fully and go into a lower order weave and stay in it partially snaked all the time. I think. If offset weaves hold for sticks...
EDITED_BY: mcp (1153926756)
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
OK, triple post, but never mind. I want to redo the notation.
Clearly having L and R in there is stupid, since they're symmetrical. we should be able to just use + and -. But sometimes things aren't symmetrical, and we need to deal with that. So:
a weave is made up of two patterns (left and right side of body). A pattern is given by the point of maximum lock for each hand. Each hand can have a number of + or -, followed by a number of contortions.
W := P | P
P := H1,H2
H := ( +* | -* ) c*
In symmetrical weaves, we can ignore the second pattern: it will be the reverse of the first pattern. So we can shorten a 4 beat +,-|-,+ to just a -,+ weave. Since each hand is only ever + or -, we can ignore the ',', and shorten ++,- to ++-
Examples:
+ standard weave
- iso weave
+- simple 4 beat
++ confusing 4 beat
++-- 6beat
+|c contorted (handcuff) version of the standard weave
-|c contorted version of the iso weave
At the moment, length( p1) = length( p2 ). But I don't think that *needs* to be the case. I'll report back tomorrow
Happy spinning!
OK, triple post, but never mind. I want to redo the notation.
Clearly having L and R in there is stupid, since they're symmetrical. we should be able to just use + and -. But sometimes things aren't symmetrical, and we need to deal with that. So:
a weave is made up of two patterns (left and right side of body). A pattern is given by the point of maximum lock for each hand. Each hand can have a number of + or -, followed by a number of contortions.
W := P | P
P := H1,H2
H := ( +* | -* ) c*
In symmetrical weaves, we can ignore the second pattern: it will be the reverse of the first pattern. So we can shorten a 4 beat +,-|-,+ to just a -,+ weave. Since each hand is only ever + or -, we can ignore the ',', and shorten ++,- to ++-
Examples:
+ standard weave
- iso weave
+- simple 4 beat
++ confusing 4 beat
++-- 6beat
+|c contorted (handcuff) version of the standard weave
-|c contorted version of the iso weave
At the moment, length( p1) = length( p2 ). But I don't think that *needs* to be the case. I'll report back tomorrow
Happy spinning!
monkeys ate my brain
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
i like POML.
Excellent term.
the rest is hurting my eyes. maybe tomorrow...
i like POML.
Excellent term.
the rest is hurting my eyes. maybe tomorrow...
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
so we developed the double contortion today, which I think should be cc, and not C cos that's obviously gotta be saved for something special.
its code: ++|cc
also a ++c (since you start in a contortion.)
and +-c|c (I think, this is the 4b handcuff weave.)
Ought to ask the question at some point, what about the -- versions of the above?
Care to ask any more about the twist, untwist and contortion theory mr moseph?
so we developed the double contortion today, which I think should be cc, and not C cos that's obviously gotta be saved for something special.
its code: ++|cc
also a ++c (since you start in a contortion.)
and +-c|c (I think, this is the 4b handcuff weave.)
Ought to ask the question at some point, what about the -- versions of the above?
Care to ask any more about the twist, untwist and contortion theory mr moseph?
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
Alright, a few new ideas...
Contortions don't replace snakes at all - you're still doing a snake even though your hands are contorted.
If you're doing a 3 beat, and opening your hands up on either side to let the sticks through, that's a 1/2 twist on each side. To simplify writing, lets call it 1.
When you do a contortion, that's a whole twist, so we'll call it 2. So we'll write a basic + weave as:
+ (1) | + (1)
a basic 4-beat is:
+- (1,1) | +- (1,1)
that is, one forward, one backward snake, doing 2 untwists on each side.
An asymmetric contorted 3 beat is
+ (2) | + ()
that is, contortion on one side, other side does nothing.
The constraint is that half the sum of the twist numbers equals the number of beats - 2.
So for a 3 beat weave, we need twist numbers that add up to 2, i.e. two untwists, or a single contortion.
Antitwists can also be added. A symmetrical contorted 3-beat, means that you have to add an antitwist on each side, so you get:
+ (-1,2) | + (-1, 2 )
I know I haven't really explained the antitwist, but it's what you have to put in to make the symmetrical 3beat contortion.
New moves resulting from this
1) Handcuff symmetrical 4 beat.
A standard 4 beat is
+- (1,1) | -+ (1,1)
so by simply replacing the 2 untwists on each side with a contortion, you get
+- (2) | -+ (2)
This is quite lovely.
2) Asymmetrical 4 beat variations
Doing a ++ 4 beat weave, you have several options
Standard asymm 4 beat
++ (1,1) | ++ (1,1)
Contorted asymm 4 beat
++ (2) | ++ (2)
To do this you are contorted in the basic snake position, but there comes a point where your hands are totally uncontorted and unsnaked, knuckles together. Maybe meg can do a better description, cos I don't have space to work it through right now.
Double contorted asymm 4beat
++ (2,2) | ++
Because of the double lock up on one arm, you have the chance to go into a double contortion. I don't have the language to describe it, but if you start with one arm doublesnaked, and the other one not contorted, follow the ends over and then wrap up on the other side, you'll eventually come to the correct position... just before your wrists fall off and your hands walk away like five legged spiders.
Alright, a few new ideas...
Contortions don't replace snakes at all - you're still doing a snake even though your hands are contorted.
If you're doing a 3 beat, and opening your hands up on either side to let the sticks through, that's a 1/2 twist on each side. To simplify writing, lets call it 1.
When you do a contortion, that's a whole twist, so we'll call it 2. So we'll write a basic + weave as:
+ (1) | + (1)
a basic 4-beat is:
+- (1,1) | +- (1,1)
that is, one forward, one backward snake, doing 2 untwists on each side.
An asymmetric contorted 3 beat is
+ (2) | + ()
that is, contortion on one side, other side does nothing.
The constraint is that half the sum of the twist numbers equals the number of beats - 2.
So for a 3 beat weave, we need twist numbers that add up to 2, i.e. two untwists, or a single contortion.
Antitwists can also be added. A symmetrical contorted 3-beat, means that you have to add an antitwist on each side, so you get:
+ (-1,2) | + (-1, 2 )
I know I haven't really explained the antitwist, but it's what you have to put in to make the symmetrical 3beat contortion.
New moves resulting from this
1) Handcuff symmetrical 4 beat.
A standard 4 beat is
+- (1,1) | -+ (1,1)
so by simply replacing the 2 untwists on each side with a contortion, you get
+- (2) | -+ (2)
This is quite lovely.
2) Asymmetrical 4 beat variations
Doing a ++ 4 beat weave, you have several options
Standard asymm 4 beat
++ (1,1) | ++ (1,1)
Contorted asymm 4 beat
++ (2) | ++ (2)
To do this you are contorted in the basic snake position, but there comes a point where your hands are totally uncontorted and unsnaked, knuckles together. Maybe meg can do a better description, cos I don't have space to work it through right now.
Double contorted asymm 4beat
++ (2,2) | ++
Because of the double lock up on one arm, you have the chance to go into a double contortion. I don't have the language to describe it, but if you start with one arm doublesnaked, and the other one not contorted, follow the ends over and then wrap up on the other side, you'll eventually come to the correct position... just before your wrists fall off and your hands walk away like five legged spiders.
monkeys ate my brain
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
good luck, it's a bitch...
i suggest you use short sticks and ghost arms which can pass through objects.
Written by: mcp
haven't yet managed to do 3b weave with box anti-spin... but maybe tomorrow...
good luck, it's a bitch...
i suggest you use short sticks and ghost arms which can pass through objects.
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
this is the hardest and final one we found right?
I don't get how it's ++ (2,2) | ++
where is the untwisting uncontorting on the other side? Oh bugger, I have to think about this more...
Written by: mo-seph
Double contorted asymm 4beat
++ (2,2) | ++
Because of the double lock up on one arm, you have the chance to go into a double contortion. I don't have the language to describe it, but if you start with one arm doublesnaked, and the other one not contorted, follow the ends over and then wrap up on the other side, you'll eventually come to the correct position... just before your wrists fall off and your hands walk away like five legged spiders.
this is the hardest and final one we found right?
I don't get how it's ++ (2,2) | ++
where is the untwisting uncontorting on the other side? Oh bugger, I have to think about this more...
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
enthusiast
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
523 posts
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posted:
There isn't any
or rather, you contort on one side, and you probably have to carry it across your body contorted, and uncontort on the other side, but then you don't recontort. So it doesn't get notated.
Obviously we'll have to expand the notation if you want to deal with maintained contortions - I'm sure there's a whole set of weave variations where you get into a contortion and keep do a weave while staying contorted.
Possibly if you do a 3 beat starting with ++ (2,2), you'd never get to untwist. It's probably possible to "short circuit" a lot of these weaves like that
Unfortunately, it's pissing with rain, and I have a huge box in my office, so I can't play.
Written by: mcp
I don't get how it's ++ (2,2) | ++
where is the untwisting uncontorting on the other side? Oh bugger, I have to think about this more...
There isn't any
or rather, you contort on one side, and you probably have to carry it across your body contorted, and uncontort on the other side, but then you don't recontort. So it doesn't get notated.
Obviously we'll have to expand the notation if you want to deal with maintained contortions - I'm sure there's a whole set of weave variations where you get into a contortion and keep do a weave while staying contorted.
Possibly if you do a 3 beat starting with ++ (2,2), you'd never get to untwist. It's probably possible to "short circuit" a lot of these weaves like that
Unfortunately, it's pissing with rain, and I have a huge box in my office, so I can't play.
monkeys ate my brain
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
yeah, you're right, now it just needs to be clean.
Doing these weaves in quarter time (fake cross) is a lot of wrist straining arm hurting weirdness too. I'm not quite sure if it's less effective because it doesn't show the weirdness of your arms up as much.
tomorrows mission: anti-spin ++ (2,2) | ++ ?
I think we should add more isolations too. And doing beats btb as well... hmmm and maybe some fun hug transitions...
then onto butterfly...
yeah, you're right, now it just needs to be clean.
Doing these weaves in quarter time (fake cross) is a lot of wrist straining arm hurting weirdness too. I'm not quite sure if it's less effective because it doesn't show the weirdness of your arms up as much.
tomorrows mission: anti-spin ++ (2,2) | ++ ?
I think we should add more isolations too. And doing beats btb as well... hmmm and maybe some fun hug transitions...
then onto butterfly...
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
video please
video please
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
good bit of filming today. I really like the parallel waistwrap contortion, and moving a one beat across the body while the other is behind the back... much more stuff there I reckon.
oh thou mo-seph, your costume was shite.
good bit of filming today. I really like the parallel waistwrap contortion, and moving a one beat across the body while the other is behind the back... much more stuff there I reckon.
oh thou mo-seph, your costume was shite.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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