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129 posts
Posted:
I normally would not cross post things like this but I am sure this also applies to double staffs as well.
Enjoy!
Hey all I just wrote this all up and am curious if anyone else understands this, it has been a synthesis from many sources, finally ready and teachable for the general public...I actually think it is not as daunting to understand as it looks, and will prove very useful if you understand it.
Props to all the techies out there that make me think writing this kinda stuff is at all useful. (Ahem, Richee)
please open this picture in another window before reading through
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310
Two Object Transitions (for poi, clubs, staffs hands etc)
So for the practical reason for this diagram is to indicate places to transition into different timings and directions. The usefulness of this chart is only amplified by the fact that it can be applied to hands, poi, clubs, doubles and pretty much any two objects in circular motion.
Theoretically this chart also applies to hybrids and compound circles but I haven’t thought it to be clear enough to be transmitted via the internet. It is easy to apply to compound circles when making sure the prop timing is the same as the hand or extended circle timing.
If you are not comfortable with your basic timings and directions, you should practice those first before moving on and understanding what follows.
On the chart
1) Timings are listed these are
tog = same time
split = split time
The Directions are indicated as
Same= same direction
Opp= opposite direction
2) the big O’s represent instances or “looks” of the poi or hands in these timing and directions. I only chose the four cardinal points cause these are the easiest to understand, (for me) other possibilities are possible.
3) One can move around the chart (changing one prop’s direction) clockwise or counter clockwise to practice switching between different timing and directions. Going across the chart requires different understandings (changing timings within the same direction)
Since there is a direction change going around the chart you will be needing to use stalls or stops to move around the Chart.
4) All the Letters A-D and 1-4 for each number just help in describing stuff…they are pretty arbitrary, well kinda is this whole system =) , it has a use to help beginners understand how to move transition between timings and directions. Also I omitted thinking about right and left hands for the sake of theory.
It may help to just draw the whole thing without the numbers and letters to better visualize it.
"The diagram again" It would have been inserted here in the doc.
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310
One Example of how to use this chart:
With just arms do a TOG/SAME extension in any direction (through positions A.1-4) when your ready stop at the left or right (A. 2 or A.4)
You can see that from these two points you can transition to SPLIT/OPP from here. Namely from A.4 to B.4, or from A.2 to B.2. Remember every transition around the chart requires you to change one hands direction or to do 1 ½ direction changes.
Now you are in SPLIT/OPP do a couple cycles here, next stop at the top and bottom with your hands. (positions B.1 and B.3) You can see that when your hands are at the top and bottom you can transition to SPLIT/SAME.
Continue in SPLIT/SAME for a while then when you find your hands at the sides (positions C.4 and C.2) you can transition to TOG/OPP.
Now you are in TOG/OPP, do a couple cycles when you are at the top or bottom (positions D.1 or D.3) you can complete the circuit by returning to TOG/SAME.
Further interesting notes:
This indicates the differences between different timings and directions but what about changing timings while not changing directions? This would be going across the chart.
(from A to C or from D to B)
The difference between SPLIT SAME and TOG/SAME is a 180 degree shift in timing.
What I mean is from TOG/SAME move one hang 180 degrees and you will be in the right positions for split same.
The difference between SPLIT/OPP and TOG/OPP is a matter of moving both points whether together or apart 90 degrees. An easier way to think about this is that SPLIT/OPP is the same as TOG/OPP just shifted 90 degrees (this is actually true in any plane too!! This means you can plane shift both poi from split opp to tog opposite)
I have found a bunch of other ways to go about going across the chart…..I should be making a video soon bout some of this….
Hope you enjoy, I want everyone to comment and to add, because I want this to grow….bye!!
Noel-ski
I normally would not cross post things like this but I am sure this also applies to double staffs as well.
Enjoy!
Hey all I just wrote this all up and am curious if anyone else understands this, it has been a synthesis from many sources, finally ready and teachable for the general public...I actually think it is not as daunting to understand as it looks, and will prove very useful if you understand it.
Props to all the techies out there that make me think writing this kinda stuff is at all useful. (Ahem, Richee)
please open this picture in another window before reading through
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310
Two Object Transitions (for poi, clubs, staffs hands etc)
So for the practical reason for this diagram is to indicate places to transition into different timings and directions. The usefulness of this chart is only amplified by the fact that it can be applied to hands, poi, clubs, doubles and pretty much any two objects in circular motion.
Theoretically this chart also applies to hybrids and compound circles but I haven’t thought it to be clear enough to be transmitted via the internet. It is easy to apply to compound circles when making sure the prop timing is the same as the hand or extended circle timing.
If you are not comfortable with your basic timings and directions, you should practice those first before moving on and understanding what follows.
On the chart
1) Timings are listed these are
tog = same time
split = split time
The Directions are indicated as
Same= same direction
Opp= opposite direction
2) the big O’s represent instances or “looks” of the poi or hands in these timing and directions. I only chose the four cardinal points cause these are the easiest to understand, (for me) other possibilities are possible.
3) One can move around the chart (changing one prop’s direction) clockwise or counter clockwise to practice switching between different timing and directions. Going across the chart requires different understandings (changing timings within the same direction)
Since there is a direction change going around the chart you will be needing to use stalls or stops to move around the Chart.
4) All the Letters A-D and 1-4 for each number just help in describing stuff…they are pretty arbitrary, well kinda is this whole system =) , it has a use to help beginners understand how to move transition between timings and directions. Also I omitted thinking about right and left hands for the sake of theory.
It may help to just draw the whole thing without the numbers and letters to better visualize it.
"The diagram again" It would have been inserted here in the doc.
www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20310
One Example of how to use this chart:
With just arms do a TOG/SAME extension in any direction (through positions A.1-4) when your ready stop at the left or right (A. 2 or A.4)
You can see that from these two points you can transition to SPLIT/OPP from here. Namely from A.4 to B.4, or from A.2 to B.2. Remember every transition around the chart requires you to change one hands direction or to do 1 ½ direction changes.
Now you are in SPLIT/OPP do a couple cycles here, next stop at the top and bottom with your hands. (positions B.1 and B.3) You can see that when your hands are at the top and bottom you can transition to SPLIT/SAME.
Continue in SPLIT/SAME for a while then when you find your hands at the sides (positions C.4 and C.2) you can transition to TOG/OPP.
Now you are in TOG/OPP, do a couple cycles when you are at the top or bottom (positions D.1 or D.3) you can complete the circuit by returning to TOG/SAME.
Further interesting notes:
This indicates the differences between different timings and directions but what about changing timings while not changing directions? This would be going across the chart.
(from A to C or from D to B)
The difference between SPLIT SAME and TOG/SAME is a 180 degree shift in timing.
What I mean is from TOG/SAME move one hang 180 degrees and you will be in the right positions for split same.
The difference between SPLIT/OPP and TOG/OPP is a matter of moving both points whether together or apart 90 degrees. An easier way to think about this is that SPLIT/OPP is the same as TOG/OPP just shifted 90 degrees (this is actually true in any plane too!! This means you can plane shift both poi from split opp to tog opposite)
I have found a bunch of other ways to go about going across the chart…..I should be making a video soon bout some of this….
Hope you enjoy, I want everyone to comment and to add, because I want this to grow….bye!!
Noel-ski
SILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)
Posted:
Hmm, seems like a nice way of teaching things to beginners, also might have a play tonight with the diagram in front of me and see if it inspires anything new from my existing moves.
Thanks a lot!
Hmm, seems like a nice way of teaching things to beginners, also might have a play tonight with the diagram in front of me and see if it inspires anything new from my existing moves.
Thanks a lot!
Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!
addict
614 posts
614 posts
Posted:
My personal opinion is the the best thing to do is actually practise with your chosen prop rather to think about it to much or use tools and advice from others, I believe that there an infinite number of tricks and the best way to to be creative is to put passion, energy and your own personalty and emotion into your training/practice.
Whilst I have lots of respect for the thought and work gone into the diagram,it seems to me the amount of time I could have spent studying it would be much better spent listening to my favourite tunes and trying to create something that makes me feel good.
Its also my concern that tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation where rules, standard principles and common practices end up having a restrictive effect on the variety and creativity within the chosen prop. Many beginners take the word of more experienced spinner very seriously and this can mean that advice can be taken as the gospel and have a huge potentially negative effect on the limits of creation that the newbie may feel possible.
I'm aware that my opinions are not commonly shared and may seem a bit harsh but I say i with years of thought and observation on the subject, on the flip side if this diagram or anything else helps inspire people to be creative then that's great and i will eat my words
My personal opinion is the the best thing to do is actually practise with your chosen prop rather to think about it to much or use tools and advice from others, I believe that there an infinite number of tricks and the best way to to be creative is to put passion, energy and your own personalty and emotion into your training/practice.
Whilst I have lots of respect for the thought and work gone into the diagram,it seems to me the amount of time I could have spent studying it would be much better spent listening to my favourite tunes and trying to create something that makes me feel good.
Its also my concern that tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation where rules, standard principles and common practices end up having a restrictive effect on the variety and creativity within the chosen prop. Many beginners take the word of more experienced spinner very seriously and this can mean that advice can be taken as the gospel and have a huge potentially negative effect on the limits of creation that the newbie may feel possible.
I'm aware that my opinions are not commonly shared and may seem a bit harsh but I say i with years of thought and observation on the subject, on the flip side if this diagram or anything else helps inspire people to be creative then that's great and i will eat my words
member
129 posts
129 posts
Posted:
Quote:Its also my concern that tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation where rules, standard principles and common practices end up having a restrictive effect on the variety and creativity within the chosen prop. Many beginners take the word of more experienced spinner very seriously and this can mean that advice can be taken as the gospel and have a huge potentially negative effect on the limits of creation that the newbie may feel possible.
Tim I do agree that being original and using your props and coming up with new stuff is definelty at the top of the reasons to spin.
I can see how putting out techie stuff does sort of make cookie cutter spinners. i wouldn't want to stifle anyone's creativity ever.
The reasoning to write this was because I saw so many similarities between technical double staff poi, and clubs I figured I'd point them out.
Also standardizing tech helps people communicate, look at site swap, especially for juggling...even staff juggling.
Thanks for your words, though makes me think.
But i still probably will talk asinine tech and post over the internet =)
BTW- Were you at Firedrums? I didn't see you!!!
Quote:Its also my concern that tools, theories and workshops can create a very generic style of manipulation where rules, standard principles and common practices end up having a restrictive effect on the variety and creativity within the chosen prop. Many beginners take the word of more experienced spinner very seriously and this can mean that advice can be taken as the gospel and have a huge potentially negative effect on the limits of creation that the newbie may feel possible.
Tim I do agree that being original and using your props and coming up with new stuff is definelty at the top of the reasons to spin.
I can see how putting out techie stuff does sort of make cookie cutter spinners. i wouldn't want to stifle anyone's creativity ever.
The reasoning to write this was because I saw so many similarities between technical double staff poi, and clubs I figured I'd point them out.
Also standardizing tech helps people communicate, look at site swap, especially for juggling...even staff juggling.
Thanks for your words, though makes me think.
But i still probably will talk asinine tech and post over the internet =)
BTW- Were you at Firedrums? I didn't see you!!!
SILVER Member
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)
Hunting robot foxes
1,046 posts
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, England (UK)
Posted:
I definately agree that these standard methods of thought often create very standard performers. You can see it particularly with jugglers and the siteswap notation, and its a shame.
I actually view these ideas as tools for more advanced spin/jugglers. In the earlier phases of your development just learn some moves, build a library of interesting things to draw on. This often will be the sort of moves you are interested in or like to watch. Then when a new way of thinking comes along you can use it to modify what you already know, instead of viewing it as something totally new.
That might not be clear. Take my 3 ball juggling for example (as its my strongest prop and also where I have my ideas straightest).
Started by learning weaves/factory ect - small stuff with intricate arm movements.
I discovered siteswap and it became a revelation, suddenly there was more to throwing a ball high out of the pattern than spinning round below it. I started to combine what I knew of siteswap with my existing tricks. (Ever seen a 531 Factory?)
The same happened with Reuben's 3b notation, it opened up a world of possibilities as to changing the hand and ball locations and suddenly the siteswap/weave variations I had could be warped into different shapes.
As I started progressing in doublestaff and got my head around split-time, same-time, opposites etc, it again gave me a new way to think about 3b weaves, I'd look at say the windmill(3b trick) and realise "oh, thats split-time clockwise, what would happen if I made it opposites?" and ideas begin to cascade. I've now got a few (and I'm, working on more) 3b tricks based on flower theory.
I think that these things (along with others) have allowed me to really understand my prop, where if I'd ignored them I might have a lot of tricks, but I would not have developed my own style as much.
Having said that, I still haven't played with this transition stuff properly yet...
I definately agree that these standard methods of thought often create very standard performers. You can see it particularly with jugglers and the siteswap notation, and its a shame.
I actually view these ideas as tools for more advanced spin/jugglers. In the earlier phases of your development just learn some moves, build a library of interesting things to draw on. This often will be the sort of moves you are interested in or like to watch. Then when a new way of thinking comes along you can use it to modify what you already know, instead of viewing it as something totally new.
That might not be clear. Take my 3 ball juggling for example (as its my strongest prop and also where I have my ideas straightest).
Started by learning weaves/factory ect - small stuff with intricate arm movements.
I discovered siteswap and it became a revelation, suddenly there was more to throwing a ball high out of the pattern than spinning round below it. I started to combine what I knew of siteswap with my existing tricks. (Ever seen a 531 Factory?)
The same happened with Reuben's 3b notation, it opened up a world of possibilities as to changing the hand and ball locations and suddenly the siteswap/weave variations I had could be warped into different shapes.
As I started progressing in doublestaff and got my head around split-time, same-time, opposites etc, it again gave me a new way to think about 3b weaves, I'd look at say the windmill(3b trick) and realise "oh, thats split-time clockwise, what would happen if I made it opposites?" and ideas begin to cascade. I've now got a few (and I'm, working on more) 3b tricks based on flower theory.
I think that these things (along with others) have allowed me to really understand my prop, where if I'd ignored them I might have a lot of tricks, but I would not have developed my own style as much.
Having said that, I still haven't played with this transition stuff properly yet...
Working hard to be a wandering hippie layabout. Ten years down, five to go!
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Sometimes having someone suggest something new opens up new things to do.
Also, people think and approach things differently. I would not really have thought of throwing poi if someone had not mentioned doing so. I do it fairly often, but I still need to explore a bit more. It is something I am now not looking for more information on actively, since I want to play with the concept behind it first.
You may also find a new use for something that you can already do. It is all part of the cross-pollination that underlies anything like these arts....
Sometimes having someone suggest something new opens up new things to do.
Also, people think and approach things differently. I would not really have thought of throwing poi if someone had not mentioned doing so. I do it fairly often, but I still need to explore a bit more. It is something I am now not looking for more information on actively, since I want to play with the concept behind it first.
You may also find a new use for something that you can already do. It is all part of the cross-pollination that underlies anything like these arts....
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Depending on how its displayed and how its taken it can either lessen or extend the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'
What Noel has got here is really in essence nothing... the theory is practically worthless without input from the person using the prop, the way I interpret and shape this theory is very different from the way a beginner would interpret and shape it.
I do my best to try to teach as many different approaches to thinking about how to use ones props that whoever I'm teaching will eventually combine components or pick a theory that suits the way their mind works best.
Depending on how its displayed and how its taken it can either lessen or extend the problem of 'cookie cutter spinners'
What Noel has got here is really in essence nothing... the theory is practically worthless without input from the person using the prop, the way I interpret and shape this theory is very different from the way a beginner would interpret and shape it.
I do my best to try to teach as many different approaches to thinking about how to use ones props that whoever I'm teaching will eventually combine components or pick a theory that suits the way their mind works best.
addict
614 posts
614 posts
Posted:
Hey guys
I was a little concerned I might get shouted at for my post but in fact i got lots of well thought out intelligent responses and that has made me think more about my point which is great!
Firstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great
Noel, yo man, i didn't make it fire and drums this years, I'm now a full time performer which is great but it means i have a lot less money and a lot less time to commit to fun trips to festivals.
I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do,
i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online,
however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance. Staff juggling for example is an area of huge potential but it seems most staff jugglers all learn the same tricks (cascade/reverse cascade, mikes mess, mills mess and some site-swaps that i don't understand or know the proper names of but you know what i mean)
it seems a bit of a shame to me when there is such a huge potential to be creative and original , of course we are all inspired and share tricks but again for me its a question balance. I sometimes take advice from deeply techie jugglers, this helps me to stay within my own comfort zones of trick creation and creativity.
I am also aware that i might be seen as very techie by some spinners, i do tend to pick very hards tricks to train and although these could easily be described as techie i feel my approach to these tricks is much less so.... anyway my thought are running out of steam, its a great thread and has raised some great questions to ask myself. nice work guys.
Hey guys
I was a little concerned I might get shouted at for my post but in fact i got lots of well thought out intelligent responses and that has made me think more about my point which is great!
Firstly the name cookie cutter is a totally new one on me and whilst i can guess what it means a deeper explanation would be great
Noel, yo man, i didn't make it fire and drums this years, I'm now a full time performer which is great but it means i have a lot less money and a lot less time to commit to fun trips to festivals.
I have no thoughts that you would ever want to stifle creativity and know you love what you do,
i also wouldn't want to discourage you or anyone else from be techie online,
however i feel like the populist thoughts and norms are leaning towards a more technical/generic approach to spinning and often feel i should try and help maintain a healthy balance. Staff juggling for example is an area of huge potential but it seems most staff jugglers all learn the same tricks (cascade/reverse cascade, mikes mess, mills mess and some site-swaps that i don't understand or know the proper names of but you know what i mean)
it seems a bit of a shame to me when there is such a huge potential to be creative and original , of course we are all inspired and share tricks but again for me its a question balance. I sometimes take advice from deeply techie jugglers, this helps me to stay within my own comfort zones of trick creation and creativity.
I am also aware that i might be seen as very techie by some spinners, i do tend to pick very hards tricks to train and although these could easily be described as techie i feel my approach to these tricks is much less so.... anyway my thought are running out of steam, its a great thread and has raised some great questions to ask myself. nice work guys.
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
Use the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.
I have a few more thoughts on that topic but don't want to derail the thread any further... someone could make a new thread for such discussion... but there does need to be a balance you're right.. there are some ways of sharing that encourage creativity and some that stifle...
I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it. Takes dedication to get to the point where you can really start to feel comfortable in the confines of your skill level and really start to play with what you've got creatively.
Use the same cookie cutter on 100 different hunks of dough and each time you're going to get something practically the same.
I have a few more thoughts on that topic but don't want to derail the thread any further... someone could make a new thread for such discussion... but there does need to be a balance you're right.. there are some ways of sharing that encourage creativity and some that stifle...
I've found in general that people who really want to push the envelope will do so anyway, those that don't have the passion for creativity are probably a lot happier being cookie cutter spinners, it really depends on what you personally want out of it. Takes dedication to get to the point where you can really start to feel comfortable in the confines of your skill level and really start to play with what you've got creatively.
addict
614 posts
614 posts
Posted:
Very,very wise words, and I agee back on thread!!!
Very,very wise words, and I agee back on thread!!!
GOLD Member
beginner forever
159 posts
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA
beginner forever
159 posts
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA
Posted:
I am going to take this back off topic, 'cause I like what it has brought up and it would maybe be a good thing to start it's own thread on at some point. If you want to talk about the original topic, people are discussing it over on the poi forum: [Old link]
Everyone must reach enlightenment in their own way, the path can not be walked for us. I believe this to be a truth and has been expressed in many different ways over the ages, one of my favorites being, "I can only show you the door, it is you who must walk through it."
However, there are people who have explored further down the path then us, and as those early people who blaze the trail move on ahead, they can beat open an easier way for others to follow. They can leave behind signs to show the people following them which way they took. This is the essence of teaching. This is why we have all those videos and articles on how to do whatever it is we are trying to learn. They are footprints for us to follow so that we don't have to completely reinvent the journey ourselves but rather learn from the successes and failures of the travelers before us and continue on with our own understanding.
I am going to take this back off topic, 'cause I like what it has brought up and it would maybe be a good thing to start it's own thread on at some point. If you want to talk about the original topic, people are discussing it over on the poi forum: [Old link]
Everyone must reach enlightenment in their own way, the path can not be walked for us. I believe this to be a truth and has been expressed in many different ways over the ages, one of my favorites being, "I can only show you the door, it is you who must walk through it."
However, there are people who have explored further down the path then us, and as those early people who blaze the trail move on ahead, they can beat open an easier way for others to follow. They can leave behind signs to show the people following them which way they took. This is the essence of teaching. This is why we have all those videos and articles on how to do whatever it is we are trying to learn. They are footprints for us to follow so that we don't have to completely reinvent the journey ourselves but rather learn from the successes and failures of the travelers before us and continue on with our own understanding.
GOLD Member
beginner forever
159 posts
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA
beginner forever
159 posts
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca, USA
Posted:
the inspiration, teaching, passing on knowledge discussion has been moved here and Durbs mentioned moving it to the Tech discussion but last I checked he hadn't done it yet.
[Old link]
EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1242892718)
the inspiration, teaching, passing on knowledge discussion has been moved here and Durbs mentioned moving it to the Tech discussion but last I checked he hadn't done it yet.
[Old link]
EDITED_BY: DyamiTK (1242892718)
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