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Forums > Technical Discussion > *Urgent* Dubai U.A.E. ****** fuel alternative *help!*
Login/Join to ParticipateFire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Hey!
*ASKING FOR ASSISTANCE FROM PROFESSIONALS!*
got a gig in Dubai at this hotel
https://www.burjalarab-hotel-dubai.com
agent is trying to source 10 liters of one of these for me
Solvent 11
Isopar G
Pegasol 3440
Shellsol T
but is asking for alternatives if they cant get any (shell has already said they dont have SolT there)
anyone have any recommendations or ideas for safe clean (and hopefully) non explosive alternatives?
No on shellite (the sharp acrid odour would be a no no even if i was comfortable with that level of combustion)
oh yeah I'm performing on a million dollar arabian gold weave carpet so.... take that into account with your suggestions.
anyone?
Hey!
*ASKING FOR ASSISTANCE FROM PROFESSIONALS!*
got a gig in Dubai at this hotel
https://www.burjalarab-hotel-dubai.com
agent is trying to source 10 liters of one of these for me
Solvent 11
Isopar G
Pegasol 3440
Shellsol T
but is asking for alternatives if they cant get any (shell has already said they dont have SolT there)
anyone have any recommendations or ideas for safe clean (and hopefully) non explosive alternatives?
No on shellite (the sharp acrid odour would be a no no even if i was comfortable with that level of combustion)
oh yeah I'm performing on a million dollar arabian gold weave carpet so.... take that into account with your suggestions.
anyone?
GOLD Member
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
4,437 posts
Location: Staines, United Kingdom
Posted:
sorry cant help you on the fuel, but a one million dollar arabian gold weave carpet
i guess poi burn offs are out of the question!! scary
sorry cant help you on the fuel, but a one million dollar arabian gold weave carpet
i guess poi burn offs are out of the question!! scary An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife
"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
yeah i'll be squeezing off thoroughly during fueling and just pre show. Am testing various fueling techniques now to see if things like leaving the end 2 cm's unfueled gives me a little less spit off etc.
Anyone suggestions on such techniques would also be greatly appreciated.
Oh ha yeah i got this gig at the start of the week and its next Wed so frag all prep time. grrr
yeah i'll be squeezing off thoroughly during fueling and just pre show. Am testing various fueling techniques now to see if things like leaving the end 2 cm's unfueled gives me a little less spit off etc.
Anyone suggestions on such techniques would also be greatly appreciated.
Oh ha yeah i got this gig at the start of the week and its next Wed so frag all prep time. grrr
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
Posted:
The only way you're going to avoid getting fuel on that carpet is by not using fuel at all. Have you considered using LED glow poi of some sort?
The only way you're going to avoid getting fuel on that carpet is by not using fuel at all. Have you considered using LED glow poi of some sort?
Cake or Death?
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Not at all an option.
I am booked as a fire act. and i am a fire performer
Glow has none of the intensity, life, spirit, impact or atmosphere of fire.
***(not that i'm not very interested in the work you've been doing. sounds fantastic! I'm definately interested in a pair when they're ready)
I will be conducting testing with whatever fuel is organised once i arrive.
If need be i will get the agent to lay out black carpet for the show.
Has anyone spun with Solvent 11, Isopar G or pegasol 3440 who can give me comparision to ShellsolT?
any difference noticed in flash points / viscosity / spit off / temperature / odour / ease of light etc?
Not at all an option.
I am booked as a fire act. and i am a fire performer
Glow has none of the intensity, life, spirit, impact or atmosphere of fire.
***(not that i'm not very interested in the work you've been doing. sounds fantastic! I'm definately interested in a pair when they're ready)
I will be conducting testing with whatever fuel is organised once i arrive.
If need be i will get the agent to lay out black carpet for the show.
Has anyone spun with Solvent 11, Isopar G or pegasol 3440 who can give me comparision to ShellsolT?
any difference noticed in flash points / viscosity / spit off / temperature / odour / ease of light etc?
GOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
still can't believe it's not butter
6,978 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
how about alternate carpeting?
good luck mate, you represent the finest in staff twirling IMHO.
slower twirling was the only method i can really suggest to mitigate fuel spitting.
how about alternate carpeting?
good luck mate, you represent the finest in staff twirling IMHO.
slower twirling was the only method i can really suggest to mitigate fuel spitting.
Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Hi Pyroptix
For spinning off to minimise fuel drip... Nick Woolsey's (Meenik) site has a video demonstrating spin off jars Very effective and saves heaps of fuel as well.
One way around fuel substitution is to ask the chemical supply company for the specifications you want rather than asking for a product by name, as these change from company to company and country etc..
eg
you would want an odourless, high flash point (above about 40degrees) fuel... here that would lead to d60 or d70.. (Solvent 11 has a flash point of about 40) Shell has not been marketing KsolT (Pegasol 3440) for some time now in Australia, maybe worldwide..
These chemicals are not intended for spinning. they are marketed as solvents, lubricants, for lamps etc. A chemical wholesaler would know their products well enough to give you what you want if you specify things like burning temperatures. They have should have MSDS (material safety data sheets) for each one as well, so you can study them and learn about the various chemical properties. I have collected MSDSs for a variety of fuels that we have been using in Brisbane whihc is why I can throw these figures round....
Hi Pyroptix
For spinning off to minimise fuel drip... Nick Woolsey's (Meenik) site has a video demonstrating spin off jars Very effective and saves heaps of fuel as well.
One way around fuel substitution is to ask the chemical supply company for the specifications you want rather than asking for a product by name, as these change from company to company and country etc..
eg
you would want an odourless, high flash point (above about 40degrees) fuel... here that would lead to d60 or d70.. (Solvent 11 has a flash point of about 40) Shell has not been marketing KsolT (Pegasol 3440) for some time now in Australia, maybe worldwide..
These chemicals are not intended for spinning. they are marketed as solvents, lubricants, for lamps etc. A chemical wholesaler would know their products well enough to give you what you want if you specify things like burning temperatures. They have should have MSDS (material safety data sheets) for each one as well, so you can study them and learn about the various chemical properties. I have collected MSDSs for a variety of fuels that we have been using in Brisbane whihc is why I can throw these figures round....
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
The problem is most of these fuels are used for manufacturing.
not something Dubai or the UAE does alot of.
Thats also why Australia is having less of these available all the time. more imports less manufacturing.
Have just heard there's a camping fuel sold in Dubai in red bottles on supermarket shelves, cleanest thing this entertainer found there on a 3 month stay.
I hate dealing with unknown quantities.
next time (with hopefully more notice) they'll be paying the DG freight costs.
The problem is most of these fuels are used for manufacturing.
not something Dubai or the UAE does alot of.
Thats also why Australia is having less of these available all the time. more imports less manufacturing.
Have just heard there's a camping fuel sold in Dubai in red bottles on supermarket shelves, cleanest thing this entertainer found there on a 3 month stay.
I hate dealing with unknown quantities.
next time (with hopefully more notice) they'll be paying the DG freight costs.
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Good luck!
One possibility: d60 being classified as non hazardous: one professional group I know actually took some on the plane with them, did not have a hassle... had the msds I presume.
Good luck!
One possibility: d60 being classified as non hazardous: one professional group I know actually took some on the plane with them, did not have a hassle... had the msds I presume.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Ok now you've got me really interested. What are some product names and suppliers or does it sell as D60?
Ok now you've got me really interested. What are some product names and suppliers or does it sell as D60?
GOLD Member
is a medium/large scary man
420 posts
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Milky Way...
is a medium/large scary man
420 posts
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Milky Way...
Posted:
Pegasol 3440 is the same as Shelsol 3440 and is almost identical to Shellsol T... So I'd recommend the Pegasol 3440... It's what I spin with... But as Hyperlight said the only way to avoid spinoff is not use fuel... But a good spinoff jar will definately minimise it...
Cheers, Moka
Pegasol 3440 is the same as Shelsol 3440 and is almost identical to Shellsol T... So I'd recommend the Pegasol 3440... It's what I spin with... But as Hyperlight said the only way to avoid spinoff is not use fuel... But a good spinoff jar will definately minimise it...
Cheers, Moka
Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
We get it marketed as Shellsol d60 (or d70) from GSB chemicals.. the Melbourne branch seems to be
G.S.B. Chemical Co Pty Ltd
5 Beatrice Ave Heidelberg West 3081
(03) 9457 1125
Moka: The flashpoint and autoignition of Pegasol is lower,(ie it catches fire quicker) hence the differing official classifications concerning hazardous or not.
There is a parallel discussion on this currently going on in [Old link] at the moment about fuel chemistry.. in fact it's been discussed a fair bit over the last year... In general in Australia, yep, spin with Pegasol no worries. Be glad we can get it and don;t have to use smelly Kero like the Poms or explosives like the Yanks.(mind you that does fit the national stereotypes
But this discussion is specifically about what's possible in Dubai, and now the possibility of a fuel one might be able to take from here to perform in another country.
Pyroptix, I will PM you with the contact for the people who have told me they took it on the plane without hassle.
We get it marketed as Shellsol d60 (or d70) from GSB chemicals.. the Melbourne branch seems to be
G.S.B. Chemical Co Pty Ltd
5 Beatrice Ave Heidelberg West 3081
(03) 9457 1125
Moka: The flashpoint and autoignition of Pegasol is lower,(ie it catches fire quicker) hence the differing official classifications concerning hazardous or not.
There is a parallel discussion on this currently going on in [Old link] at the moment about fuel chemistry.. in fact it's been discussed a fair bit over the last year... In general in Australia, yep, spin with Pegasol no worries. Be glad we can get it and don;t have to use smelly Kero like the Poms or explosives like the Yanks.(mind you that does fit the national stereotypes
But this discussion is specifically about what's possible in Dubai, and now the possibility of a fuel one might be able to take from here to perform in another country.
Pyroptix, I will PM you with the contact for the people who have told me they took it on the plane without hassle.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Also, the other way to avoid spin off is to use spin off jars, as mentioned above, and then let the poi burn (swinging very gently to avoid burning your hands) for a while before spinning them. This can easily be incorporated into the beginning of a routine.
Also, the other way to avoid spin off is to use spin off jars, as mentioned above, and then let the poi burn (swinging very gently to avoid burning your hands) for a while before spinning them. This can easily be incorporated into the beginning of a routine.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
I remember Coleman saying something about him getting some Shellsol D60 or something....
Perhaps drop him a PM?
I remember Coleman saying something about him getting some Shellsol D60 or something....
Perhaps drop him a PM?
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
old hand
1,174 posts
Location: Great Malvern [UK]
Posted:
That's a fair point, fire does still have a certain something about it
Written by: Pyroptix
Not at all an option.
I am booked as a fire act. and i am a fire performer
Glow has none of the intensity, life, spirit, impact or atmosphere of fire.
***(not that i'm not very interested in the work you've been doing. sounds fantastic! I'm definately interested in a pair when they're ready)
That's a fair point, fire does still have a certain something about it
Cake or Death?
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
might be easier for an Melbourne spinner to get it in Melbourne than wherever Cole tried to! It is easily available here.. I think Cole was trying to emulate us colonials!
Written by: UnbeatenChampionOfFighting
I remember Coleman saying something about him getting some Shellsol D60 or something....
Perhaps drop him a PM?
might be easier for an Melbourne spinner to get it in Melbourne than wherever Cole tried to! It is easily available here.. I think Cole was trying to emulate us colonials!
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
Can you not just buy a *really* long hose pipe and a funnel?
Can you not just buy a *really* long hose pipe and a funnel?
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
like it. Long distance refueling. Could set a happy precedent 
Pyroptix, slight technical update:
I just looked at the new MSDS for D70 I was given yesterday by GSB Chemicals. The last one I had was from 1999, this one is 2003.
Seems there are different codes of classification:
D70 is classified as Hazardous by the AustralianNational Occupational Health and Safety Commission
and also as
NON-DANGEROUS GOODS by the Australian Dangerous Goods Code
This rings a bell with me: I remember being told this was the case about D60 : it was the (non)- dangerous goods status that meant it could travel OK.
(the hazardous refers to whether it's a great idea to stick it in your mouth
Cheers
G
like it. Long distance refueling. Could set a happy precedent Pyroptix, slight technical update:
Written by: newgabe
D60 being classified as non hazardous: one professional group I know actually took some on the plane with them.
I just looked at the new MSDS for D70 I was given yesterday by GSB Chemicals. The last one I had was from 1999, this one is 2003.
Seems there are different codes of classification:
D70 is classified as Hazardous by the AustralianNational Occupational Health and Safety Commission
and also as
NON-DANGEROUS GOODS by the Australian Dangerous Goods Code
This rings a bell with me: I remember being told this was the case about D60 : it was the (non)- dangerous goods status that meant it could travel OK.
(the hazardous refers to whether it's a great idea to stick it in your mouth
Cheers
G
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
enthusiast
328 posts
Location: uk
328 posts
Location: uk
Posted:
Make sure you have have full public liability insurance and that it covers costs of damages, seriously you might want to be considering a product thats called 'flambard' in the uk, its a spray on material used in amongst other areas theatrical work where fire or hot fallout is likely to come into contact with combustable materials. It's mostly compatible with fabrics and tends not to damage or stain, your going to need to check this obvoiusly.
From here on in, your probably going to want (not) to consider using a fuel that doesn't eject a 'oily' residue, although for the indoor fire shows I do i tend to used very stringent fuel ejection protocols rather than low flashpoint fuels that don't eject oily residue.
Just a thought, how long is your show, since for most of the indoor work I do, i tend to pre burn all the performance kit outside then extinguish and allow to cool, I find this very effective for limiting fuel throw off.
mark
Make sure you have have full public liability insurance and that it covers costs of damages, seriously you might want to be considering a product thats called 'flambard' in the uk, its a spray on material used in amongst other areas theatrical work where fire or hot fallout is likely to come into contact with combustable materials. It's mostly compatible with fabrics and tends not to damage or stain, your going to need to check this obvoiusly.
From here on in, your probably going to want (not) to consider using a fuel that doesn't eject a 'oily' residue, although for the indoor fire shows I do i tend to used very stringent fuel ejection protocols rather than low flashpoint fuels that don't eject oily residue.
Just a thought, how long is your show, since for most of the indoor work I do, i tend to pre burn all the performance kit outside then extinguish and allow to cool, I find this very effective for limiting fuel throw off.
mark
Fire coach - Cirque du Soleil
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
89 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
thanks marco,
Yes i have liability. I also have retardent which, though normally a great idea which i implement regularly, this time i will *not* be spraying on their rug.
"hi i'm just going to spray a little of this on your rug to see if it will stain. dont worry, it means if i drop this meter long bar of flame i'm spinning at least the carpet wont burn!" lol naah...
My worries were for any slight staining as caused by a few drops of fuel on it. I will not be dropping equipment.
I am getting the agent to lay down carpeting.
My set will be 7 minutes long, fire eating, hybrid clubs(finger loops to allow them to unwrap and be poi spun), doubles, fire flags (short fat ropes), full wicked doubles.
Burning off outside will not be an option. the ballroom is on the 27th floor. 
Cheers for all the advice though Hoppers!!!
thanks marco,
Yes i have liability. I also have retardent which, though normally a great idea which i implement regularly, this time i will *not* be spraying on their rug.
"hi i'm just going to spray a little of this on your rug to see if it will stain. dont worry, it means if i drop this meter long bar of flame i'm spinning at least the carpet wont burn!" lol naah...
My worries were for any slight staining as caused by a few drops of fuel on it. I will not be dropping equipment.
I am getting the agent to lay down carpeting.
My set will be 7 minutes long, fire eating, hybrid clubs(finger loops to allow them to unwrap and be poi spun), doubles, fire flags (short fat ropes), full wicked doubles.
Burning off outside will not be an option. the ballroom is on the 27th floor.
Cheers for all the advice though Hoppers!!!
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
anyway. Gold doesn't burn
anyway. Gold doesn't burn
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
BRONZE Member
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Posted:
Wow!
The Burj Al Arab is amazing (I used to live around that area of the world).
It has a restaurant that you get to in a fake submarine. The restaurant has walls which are aquariums making it look like you're underwater.
That's a very cool gig.
Yeah. I'd pop something over the carpet if I were you....
Wow!
The Burj Al Arab is amazing (I used to live around that area of the world).
It has a restaurant that you get to in a fake submarine. The restaurant has walls which are aquariums making it look like you're underwater.
That's a very cool gig.
Yeah. I'd pop something over the carpet if I were you....
Boo x
I intend to live forever - so far, so good.
If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?
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