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Forums > Social Chat > altered state..
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
Well, I can now attest to two things about playing with my poi while under the influence of E..1. Poi "seems" very easy to do, but in reality, I'm hitting myself more.2. It *IS* possible to learn new moves under the influence. :P I learned the reverse weave...sheesh..now all I need to do is learn some BTB stuff..heh------------------ [PLUR]-=Crazy Raver Dude=-
Well, I can now attest to two things about playing with my poi while under the influence of E..1. Poi "seems" very easy to do, but in reality, I'm hitting myself more.2. It *IS* possible to learn new moves under the influence. :P I learned the reverse weave...sheesh..now all I need to do is learn some BTB stuff..heh------------------ [PLUR]-=Crazy Raver Dude=-
-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
member
93 posts
Location: Oxford, UK
93 posts
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted:
I use some 'enhancements'. I steer well clear of some others. Some, I have used and have no desire to ever use again. Some, I have used a long time ago, really enjoyed but haven't felt inclined to repeat for years.Some people go to the gym every day because they find it pleasurable physically and mentally. Douglas Adams died in a gym a couple of weeks ago. I don't do the gym thing, I also respect people who choose to do so.I drink far too much caffeine for my own good. I smoke tobacco, which is a bad thing.My dad was on medication far more mind-altering than (almost) anything I ever used recreationally. But that was socially acceptable. Not because it made him a happier person, but because it was prescribed by a licensed person.No substance is inherently good or bad. The circumstances under which it is used can lead to a good or bad outcome. As can the particular susceptibilities of the person using it.Some religions ban any use of substances which other religions use in their most sacred ceremonies. This debate will run for many more millennia.Just don't hurt anyone except yourself, and look after yourself.mikeyB
I use some 'enhancements'. I steer well clear of some others. Some, I have used and have no desire to ever use again. Some, I have used a long time ago, really enjoyed but haven't felt inclined to repeat for years.Some people go to the gym every day because they find it pleasurable physically and mentally. Douglas Adams died in a gym a couple of weeks ago. I don't do the gym thing, I also respect people who choose to do so.I drink far too much caffeine for my own good. I smoke tobacco, which is a bad thing.My dad was on medication far more mind-altering than (almost) anything I ever used recreationally. But that was socially acceptable. Not because it made him a happier person, but because it was prescribed by a licensed person.No substance is inherently good or bad. The circumstances under which it is used can lead to a good or bad outcome. As can the particular susceptibilities of the person using it.Some religions ban any use of substances which other religions use in their most sacred ceremonies. This debate will run for many more millennia.Just don't hurt anyone except yourself, and look after yourself.mikeyB
BRONZE Member
member
170 posts
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kingdom
member
170 posts
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kingdom
Posted:
Josh - nice one.I'll have to have a rummage through my books but it sounds like it should tie in with some of old Huxley's works "..opening the doors of perception....etc". Long time since I read that stuff but as I remember it was quite a revelation (literally!) and was instrumental in bringing "altered states of conciousness" to the attention of our somewhat materialistic, mainstream occidental society.I must say, it's been a wee while since I knocked on those particular doors - here's hoping no-one's thrown away the key!CheersNoods
Josh - nice one.I'll have to have a rummage through my books but it sounds like it should tie in with some of old Huxley's works "..opening the doors of perception....etc". Long time since I read that stuff but as I remember it was quite a revelation (literally!) and was instrumental in bringing "altered states of conciousness" to the attention of our somewhat materialistic, mainstream occidental society.I must say, it's been a wee while since I knocked on those particular doors - here's hoping no-one's thrown away the key!CheersNoods
Fish are just like trees except they move and they're invisible
BRONZE Member
member
170 posts
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kingdom
member
170 posts
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kingdom
Posted:
Just read my last post - it wasn't meant to sound that pompous - honest!
Noods
Just read my last post - it wasn't meant to sound that pompous - honest!
Noods Fish are just like trees except they move and they're invisible
member
160 posts
160 posts
Posted:
Hehehe...It wasn't pompous. And it was Huxley who wrote those words in the doors of perception...I would agree with Peregrine... if you don't want to try drugs.. particularly hallucinogens... don't. You're not that kind of animal... some people are born to experiment, others are not.But maybe read Huxley... or read Kubla Kahn, which Coleridge wrote under the influence of Opium... listen to Bitch's Brew by Mile's Davis... read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which Kesey conceived while working in a mental hospital... often on LSD... read about the history of drugs... learn that shamans have used them since prehistoric times for enlightenment and healing......please... this is not a "you're not cool for not taking drugs" argument... I hate to see a cracked out fifteen year old as much as anyone else... but just as certain people are born to stay sobre, certain people are born to destroy themselves... if E did not exist, they would take meth.. if meth did not exist, they would take coke... if coke did not exist, they would huff frigging air conditioners...... the point is... there are people who are creative and productive... drugs can make them more creative and productive... there are people who are lazy and destructive... drugs can make them more lazy and destructive.....again... certain substances just make the poi spin easier. I hope that simply because different opinions are being expressed, people don't view this as "bad" or "unproductive"... this is good... people today too much fear to say anything contrary. I value the opinions expressed here and the opportunity to discuss my own...
Hehehe...It wasn't pompous. And it was Huxley who wrote those words in the doors of perception...I would agree with Peregrine... if you don't want to try drugs.. particularly hallucinogens... don't. You're not that kind of animal... some people are born to experiment, others are not.But maybe read Huxley... or read Kubla Kahn, which Coleridge wrote under the influence of Opium... listen to Bitch's Brew by Mile's Davis... read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which Kesey conceived while working in a mental hospital... often on LSD... read about the history of drugs... learn that shamans have used them since prehistoric times for enlightenment and healing......please... this is not a "you're not cool for not taking drugs" argument... I hate to see a cracked out fifteen year old as much as anyone else... but just as certain people are born to stay sobre, certain people are born to destroy themselves... if E did not exist, they would take meth.. if meth did not exist, they would take coke... if coke did not exist, they would huff frigging air conditioners...... the point is... there are people who are creative and productive... drugs can make them more creative and productive... there are people who are lazy and destructive... drugs can make them more lazy and destructive.....again... certain substances just make the poi spin easier. I hope that simply because different opinions are being expressed, people don't view this as "bad" or "unproductive"... this is good... people today too much fear to say anything contrary. I value the opinions expressed here and the opportunity to discuss my own...
BRONZE Member
member
90 posts
Location: New Paltz, NY, USA
member
90 posts
Location: New Paltz, NY, USA
Posted:
ok, ok- first i'd like to apologize for bringing this up as there were bound to be many angry responses, and it doesn't exactly relate so well to poi.1.) i'm not saying i wouldn't befriend those who do drugs- as a matter of fact, many of my friends do drugs. i make it aware that i don't approve of it, and that's pretty much where it ends.2.) yes, many people have done great things under the influence. but many more people have done great things sober, and have lived much longer to do even more great things. 3.) drugs never cause anyone to be creative.creativity is something one has to have already. 4.)drugs may make you feel smarter and more in tune with the earth or whatnot, but in reality you're a blithering idiot on the floor and you've just told the entire room that you have a small penis. 5.) drug use (not even abuse, just use in general) is proven to shorten lives and kill brain cells. Ecstasy takes away dopamine, making it much harder for a person to reach a feeling of happiness. Nicotine blackens the lungs and causes cancer. Alcohol destroys the liver. These are things we KNOW. 6.) Yes, good people do drugs. bad people do drugs. i am not making a personality judgment. i have no right to.7.) i think drug use is very selfish. one tends not to think about the others one may be harming by using them.in closing, why shorten a life that is so short to begin with?
ok, ok- first i'd like to apologize for bringing this up as there were bound to be many angry responses, and it doesn't exactly relate so well to poi.1.) i'm not saying i wouldn't befriend those who do drugs- as a matter of fact, many of my friends do drugs. i make it aware that i don't approve of it, and that's pretty much where it ends.2.) yes, many people have done great things under the influence. but many more people have done great things sober, and have lived much longer to do even more great things. 3.) drugs never cause anyone to be creative.creativity is something one has to have already. 4.)drugs may make you feel smarter and more in tune with the earth or whatnot, but in reality you're a blithering idiot on the floor and you've just told the entire room that you have a small penis. 5.) drug use (not even abuse, just use in general) is proven to shorten lives and kill brain cells. Ecstasy takes away dopamine, making it much harder for a person to reach a feeling of happiness. Nicotine blackens the lungs and causes cancer. Alcohol destroys the liver. These are things we KNOW. 6.) Yes, good people do drugs. bad people do drugs. i am not making a personality judgment. i have no right to.7.) i think drug use is very selfish. one tends not to think about the others one may be harming by using them.in closing, why shorten a life that is so short to begin with?
~K~No matter what you do, one billion Chinese won't care.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I don't. That's it. That's where my jurisdiction in this issue ends, with me. I have lost friends to drugs, and have also had a few whose lives were prolonged because of drugs TG, and I don't mean over the counter/prescrips. A friend who had terminal cancer smoked pot, alot. It made him hungry when he otherwise was not, the food gave him strength to fight the disease, he lived way past his alotted time span.And have you ever been to an AA or NA meeting? Many of those people have addictive personalities that goes untreated. If they aren't adicted to cigs, booze and drugs then they are addicted to caffeine (also a drug in my eyes, and my drug of choice), to those meetings (some people feel they need to go everyday), to food, to things. They transfer one addiction for another...and all of them are detrimental because anything without moderation isn't healthy. It all depends on what you deem a drug to be.I don't understand it either TG. I don't want to cause if I do, maybe I will change the path I am on and I like it here. I know what is right for me and I have to trust others to know what is right for them, and if they don't then I have to trust them to ask for help. Does it make them a lesser person in my eyes? Hell no, just along a different path. I can understand all point written here except the absoluteness of Josh's statement "say good bye to all great art.....as they created by people under the influence." I have to disagree. Yes, alot of art is, but far more art has been created by those who are high on life over the coarse of years than those who are otherwise altered. In my eyes, I wouldn't be saying goodbye to much (except, well chucking away Poe would break my heart). I have to agree that great art and creativity are not borne from drugs but are there to begin with, mayhaps the drugs just loosened the artist up, or heightened their emotions to that release but they could've created without it.That's my li'l bit here. I don't, you do or don't, good for us!
------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...
I don't. That's it. That's where my jurisdiction in this issue ends, with me. I have lost friends to drugs, and have also had a few whose lives were prolonged because of drugs TG, and I don't mean over the counter/prescrips. A friend who had terminal cancer smoked pot, alot. It made him hungry when he otherwise was not, the food gave him strength to fight the disease, he lived way past his alotted time span.And have you ever been to an AA or NA meeting? Many of those people have addictive personalities that goes untreated. If they aren't adicted to cigs, booze and drugs then they are addicted to caffeine (also a drug in my eyes, and my drug of choice), to those meetings (some people feel they need to go everyday), to food, to things. They transfer one addiction for another...and all of them are detrimental because anything without moderation isn't healthy. It all depends on what you deem a drug to be.I don't understand it either TG. I don't want to cause if I do, maybe I will change the path I am on and I like it here. I know what is right for me and I have to trust others to know what is right for them, and if they don't then I have to trust them to ask for help. Does it make them a lesser person in my eyes? Hell no, just along a different path. I can understand all point written here except the absoluteness of Josh's statement "say good bye to all great art.....as they created by people under the influence." I have to disagree. Yes, alot of art is, but far more art has been created by those who are high on life over the coarse of years than those who are otherwise altered. In my eyes, I wouldn't be saying goodbye to much (except, well chucking away Poe would break my heart). I have to agree that great art and creativity are not borne from drugs but are there to begin with, mayhaps the drugs just loosened the artist up, or heightened their emotions to that release but they could've created without it.That's my li'l bit here. I don't, you do or don't, good for us!
------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir... Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
member
160 posts
160 posts
Posted:
I find it difficult to understand how someone who has never done drugs can argue their effects...I am a painter.I have always been technically compentent and have a degree of mastery.My use of cannabis and hallucinogens allowed me to make creative associations I would not have been able to make previously......no, they did not "create my creativity"... like I said earlier... different people are geared for different things.As far as drugs making you a blithering idiot... again...thats just the blithering idiot living inside of some people...At that.. I will walk away... if nothing else... I find it interesting that the drug people are devoted to an openness of opinion, dialogue, and intelligent discussion and the non-drug people want to remain in their little realm of experience, batten down the hatches and go back to everything is ok land....... if nothing else, this post reiterates what I've been trying to say... there are those who ride the edge, those who fall off... and those who never go anywhere near...
I find it difficult to understand how someone who has never done drugs can argue their effects...I am a painter.I have always been technically compentent and have a degree of mastery.My use of cannabis and hallucinogens allowed me to make creative associations I would not have been able to make previously......no, they did not "create my creativity"... like I said earlier... different people are geared for different things.As far as drugs making you a blithering idiot... again...thats just the blithering idiot living inside of some people...At that.. I will walk away... if nothing else... I find it interesting that the drug people are devoted to an openness of opinion, dialogue, and intelligent discussion and the non-drug people want to remain in their little realm of experience, batten down the hatches and go back to everything is ok land....... if nothing else, this post reiterates what I've been trying to say... there are those who ride the edge, those who fall off... and those who never go anywhere near...
enthusiast
237 posts
237 posts
Posted:
This whole diatribe begun with one person relating how they had experienced the wonder of poi under the influence of drugs. Everyone (of course) is free to comment but really,why enter a conversation on a topic you disagree with. Some post are on subjects I disagree with, some don't interest me. We're ALL aware of eachothers opinions on drug use. It seem to come up fortnightly. Why not just let it lye. People who take and want to discuss their experience cool. People who don't, just as cool but why flare up debates where people get emotional and opinions clash.This is such a peaceful boardlet's just agree to disagree and show some restraint in trying to comment on things where people are either yay or nay it just seems a little unnecessary sometimes
This whole diatribe begun with one person relating how they had experienced the wonder of poi under the influence of drugs. Everyone (of course) is free to comment but really,why enter a conversation on a topic you disagree with. Some post are on subjects I disagree with, some don't interest me. We're ALL aware of eachothers opinions on drug use. It seem to come up fortnightly. Why not just let it lye. People who take and want to discuss their experience cool. People who don't, just as cool but why flare up debates where people get emotional and opinions clash.This is such a peaceful board
let's just agree to disagree and show some restraint in trying to comment on things where people are either yay or nay it just seems a little unnecessary sometimes member
160 posts
160 posts
Posted:
I think this has been relatively peaceful.It is impossible to learn anything valuable unless you engage opinions different from your own.
I think this has been relatively peaceful.It is impossible to learn anything valuable unless you engage opinions different from your own.
member
428 posts
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
428 posts
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Posted:
>>>> I find it interesting that the drug people are devoted to an openness of opinion, dialogue, and intelligent discussion and the non-drug people want to remain in their little realm of experience, batten down the hatches and go back to everything is ok land....<<<<
>>>> I find it interesting that the drug people are devoted to an openness of opinion, dialogue, and intelligent discussion and the non-drug people want to remain in their little realm of experience, batten down the hatches and go back to everything is ok land....<<<<
enthusiast
237 posts
237 posts
Posted:
So why argue !?!?!?
So why argue !?!?!?
member
428 posts
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
428 posts
Location: Mystic, Ct. USA
Posted:
because i dont want such a misthrown statement to get by without being (relatively politely i hope) challeneged?Pere
because i dont want such a misthrown statement to get by without being (relatively politely i hope) challeneged?Pere
member
160 posts
160 posts
Posted:
No.. it's totally cool...I agree, I shouldn't have re-worded the "intelligent discussion" part... you definitely have my apology for that! But it was not intended to imply that your remarks were unintellingent... because they were quite intelligent!Rather, I was trying to suggest that I saw the conversation this way:1. Somebody made a comment about learning something from E.2. He got bashed.3. Discussion started.4. People interested in experimenting with drugs tried a number of ways (i.e. references to creative individuals, analogies, personal stories) to illustrate that those against drugs may be condemning something they do not fully understand.5. People against drugs accepted some statements, i.e. creativity ones, but continued to be somewhat hard-line and unaccepting... which is fine... but perhaps might have been more productive if they expressed an interest in people who have been there, have learned things, and lead very productive lives.Again.. I apologize for my language in the last post... I enjoy discussions like this and wish they could take place without people getting testy... which I guess I seemed to.. though I did not mean... it.Heheh... didna' I say I was getting out of this about three posts ago... think I will now, just please know that I do value what everyone said and have NO criticisms of anyone's intelligence or mode of expression... I was just hoping for an open dialogue on this and am realizing that it's probably not possible... if anything, perhaps I was a bit offended, as a former drug user, that you seem to extend your criticisms to all drug users... which is a little hard.
No.. it's totally cool...I agree, I shouldn't have re-worded the "intelligent discussion" part... you definitely have my apology for that! But it was not intended to imply that your remarks were unintellingent... because they were quite intelligent!Rather, I was trying to suggest that I saw the conversation this way:1. Somebody made a comment about learning something from E.2. He got bashed.3. Discussion started.4. People interested in experimenting with drugs tried a number of ways (i.e. references to creative individuals, analogies, personal stories) to illustrate that those against drugs may be condemning something they do not fully understand.5. People against drugs accepted some statements, i.e. creativity ones, but continued to be somewhat hard-line and unaccepting... which is fine... but perhaps might have been more productive if they expressed an interest in people who have been there, have learned things, and lead very productive lives.Again.. I apologize for my language in the last post... I enjoy discussions like this and wish they could take place without people getting testy... which I guess I seemed to.. though I did not mean... it.Heheh... didna' I say I was getting out of this about three posts ago... think I will now, just please know that I do value what everyone said and have NO criticisms of anyone's intelligence or mode of expression... I was just hoping for an open dialogue on this and am realizing that it's probably not possible... if anything, perhaps I was a bit offended, as a former drug user, that you seem to extend your criticisms to all drug users... which is a little hard.
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
At the risk of causing another flare up, I'd like to address something tekknogurrl brought up that was totally trod on. When you lose someone you love to drugs or alcohol, it changes how you feel about it forever. I feel like though she came across really hardcore at first, that once she explained where she was coming from she could have been treated with more understanding. I know that when I lost my brother to alcohol, my feelings about booze changed. I drink sparingly now, but never to excess. I, for one, understand and I'm sorry for your loss, gurrl. Diana
At the risk of causing another flare up, I'd like to address something tekknogurrl brought up that was totally trod on. When you lose someone you love to drugs or alcohol, it changes how you feel about it forever. I feel like though she came across really hardcore at first, that once she explained where she was coming from she could have been treated with more understanding. I know that when I lost my brother to alcohol, my feelings about booze changed. I drink sparingly now, but never to excess. I, for one, understand and I'm sorry for your loss, gurrl. Diana
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
The reason why this is a fruitless arguement?simple. people who have taken mind altering drugs understand the relationship between perception and 'reality' those who havent, simply do not.You say you observe the actions of those you know on drugs, but what you observe is what you are looking for, and I have no doubt in my mind that anyone who is 'anti-drugs' would be totally unable to observe a pro-drugs persons behaviour with no bias.relationships break up with and without drugs.people get addicted to all sorts of weird shit, not just drugs. Behaviour can and is very addictive to some ppl.to make any judgements at all about the subjective effects (or lack of) with no subjective experience would require quite a hell of a lot of cross-referenced case analysis - has anyone here done that? Sounds like a huge bunch of anecdotal 'pick and choose your evidence' style stuff being described here. Allowing *that* to pass for the sake of the freedom of speech would be closed mindedJosh
The reason why this is a fruitless arguement?simple. people who have taken mind altering drugs understand the relationship between perception and 'reality' those who havent, simply do not.You say you observe the actions of those you know on drugs, but what you observe is what you are looking for, and I have no doubt in my mind that anyone who is 'anti-drugs' would be totally unable to observe a pro-drugs persons behaviour with no bias.relationships break up with and without drugs.people get addicted to all sorts of weird shit, not just drugs. Behaviour can and is very addictive to some ppl.to make any judgements at all about the subjective effects (or lack of) with no subjective experience would require quite a hell of a lot of cross-referenced case analysis - has anyone here done that? Sounds like a huge bunch of anecdotal 'pick and choose your evidence' style stuff being described here. Allowing *that* to pass for the sake of the freedom of speech would be closed minded
Josh SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
wow..who would have thought, my post would have sparked such a debate! I'm not even done reading it, but I HAD to reply. I think everyone has valid points. However, I feel that(hates to direct any comments towards anyone), some of TG's comments were quite abrasive.Your first point..you don't do them, and you let other's know you don't. I can respect this one and will always. to each his own.2.) yes, many people have done great things under the influence. but many more people have done great things sober, and have lived much longer to do even more great things. ***This statement. I feel NO ONE in here has the right to say that more of either drug users or non-drug users did either. Yes, there have been artists and performers that did their thing under the influence. (some of them very famous) But there also have been people who were not under the influence. None of us are historians(I don't believe) and especially not historians educated on the personal lives of our ancestors.3.) drugs never cause anyone to be creative.creativity is something one has to have already. ***This is a personal opinion. I agree that one has to already have creativeness. I believe that a lot of diff drugs only "accentuate" one's personality or being. So if they are creative, it will help or expand their creativity. If they are a complete idiot, they will be more of one.4.)drugs may make you feel smarter and more in tune with the earth or whatnot, but in reality you're a blithering idiot on the floor and you've just told the entire room that you have a small penis. ***You may have had experiences with people who are this way, but I beg to differ. I smoke on a regular basis(not cigs), and I am also around people who are. Yes, we get silly sometimes. But we are also in control of what we are saying and thinking. We are who we are. I am clumsy and forgetful without the pot, add it, and I'm twice as clumsy and twice as forgetful. no surprise there.5.) drug use (not even abuse, just use in general) is proven to shorten lives and kill brain cells. Ecstasy takes away dopamine, making it much harder for a person to reach a feeling of happiness. Nicotine blackens the lungs and causes cancer. Alcohol destroys the liver. These are things we KNOW. *** They have NOT proven that all drugs shorten lives. And actually in some cases they've proven that certain kinds extend lives. We also do not know how MUCH any drug shortens anyones lives. Hell, we are just now starting to understand the long-term effects of cigarettes! E does take away dopamine. But if you are a smart E-user, you will do research on the drug, find out it's side effects. There are pre-loaders and post-loaders that you can take to help protect your brain from the side effects of E. If you are interested in this, try doing a search for: 5-htp pre-loader6.) Yes, good people do drugs. bad people do drugs. i am not making a personality judgment. i have no right to.*** I agree 100% on this one. 7.) i think drug use is very selfish. one tends not to think about the others one may be harming by using them.*** The only harm that I can forsee(currently I am 100% sober) from any of my drug use, might be emotionally to the people around me who are completely against it. Beyond that, you are correct, I fail to see how it may be harming others. Please enlighten me. Anyway...this is the reason why I feel this debate is going on. If you are going to make a statement about how you feel. State it as your opinion, not as a fact. This is what upsets people and gets them excited. Everyone likes to think they know everything, or at least has teh upper hand. When in reality, 99% of what is being argued is all "personal preference" or opinion.Just my 2gp PEACE guys :PCRD
wow..who would have thought, my post would have sparked such a debate! I'm not even done reading it, but I HAD to reply. I think everyone has valid points. However, I feel that(hates to direct any comments towards anyone), some of TG's comments were quite abrasive.Your first point..you don't do them, and you let other's know you don't. I can respect this one and will always. to each his own.2.) yes, many people have done great things under the influence. but many more people have done great things sober, and have lived much longer to do even more great things. ***This statement. I feel NO ONE in here has the right to say that more of either drug users or non-drug users did either. Yes, there have been artists and performers that did their thing under the influence. (some of them very famous) But there also have been people who were not under the influence. None of us are historians(I don't believe) and especially not historians educated on the personal lives of our ancestors.
3.) drugs never cause anyone to be creative.creativity is something one has to have already. ***This is a personal opinion. I agree that one has to already have creativeness. I believe that a lot of diff drugs only "accentuate" one's personality or being. So if they are creative, it will help or expand their creativity. If they are a complete idiot, they will be more of one.4.)drugs may make you feel smarter and more in tune with the earth or whatnot, but in reality you're a blithering idiot on the floor and you've just told the entire room that you have a small penis. ***You may have had experiences with people who are this way, but I beg to differ. I smoke on a regular basis(not cigs), and I am also around people who are. Yes, we get silly sometimes. But we are also in control of what we are saying and thinking. We are who we are. I am clumsy and forgetful without the pot, add it, and I'm twice as clumsy and twice as forgetful. no surprise there.5.) drug use (not even abuse, just use in general) is proven to shorten lives and kill brain cells. Ecstasy takes away dopamine, making it much harder for a person to reach a feeling of happiness. Nicotine blackens the lungs and causes cancer. Alcohol destroys the liver. These are things we KNOW. *** They have NOT proven that all drugs shorten lives. And actually in some cases they've proven that certain kinds extend lives. We also do not know how MUCH any drug shortens anyones lives. Hell, we are just now starting to understand the long-term effects of cigarettes! E does take away dopamine. But if you are a smart E-user, you will do research on the drug, find out it's side effects. There are pre-loaders and post-loaders that you can take to help protect your brain from the side effects of E. If you are interested in this, try doing a search for: 5-htp pre-loader6.) Yes, good people do drugs. bad people do drugs. i am not making a personality judgment. i have no right to.*** I agree 100% on this one. 7.) i think drug use is very selfish. one tends not to think about the others one may be harming by using them.*** The only harm that I can forsee(currently I am 100% sober) from any of my drug use, might be emotionally to the people around me who are completely against it. Beyond that, you are correct, I fail to see how it may be harming others. Please enlighten me. Anyway...this is the reason why I feel this debate is going on. If you are going to make a statement about how you feel. State it as your opinion, not as a fact. This is what upsets people and gets them excited. Everyone likes to think they know everything, or at least has teh upper hand. When in reality, 99% of what is being argued is all "personal preference" or opinion.Just my 2gp PEACE guys :PCRD -=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
I agree with your statement Pere that by the fact that we ARE drug users, we are actually not capable of seeing ourselves. But at the same time, I agree with Josh in that one not having any life experiences with drugs, their preception of us, is going to be altered by that fact. So summing it all up, we can only make our own decisions in life. I try to make mine as educated as I can. I don't fruitlessly(and to get fucked up) eat a bunch of drugs. I actually do education on the various types and like to become as informed as possible. I feel that everyone should do this. I'm not flaming anyone. To each his own. It is for some people, and it isn't for others. I, too, apologize to you TG for your loss. It DOES sadden me.
I wish that kind of thing never happens. But it does..every day. No one can deny that unfortunately. To all you peeps out there who have chose not to try these drugs..let me pose a question. If you were with a friend who was drinking and they said they loved you? would you believe that they were "enough there" to mean what they said? I think it goes the same for any non-sober state of mind. If you asked me if I loved you, 2 seconds after I JUST woke up, I'd prolly tell you I loved you. Just because I wasn't all there yet. totally sober though. I think is every friends responsibility to be able to recognize these types of things. If they perturb you, ask them about it the next day. Ask them what they meant by that, or ask them to explain themselves in more detail. Welp..I guess I can add this 2gp to my previous 2gp, and now we have 4gp!!!I think we need a group hug. *HUG*CRD[This message has been edited by CrazyRaverDude (edited 23 May 2001).]
I agree with your statement Pere that by the fact that we ARE drug users, we are actually not capable of seeing ourselves. But at the same time, I agree with Josh in that one not having any life experiences with drugs, their preception of us, is going to be altered by that fact. So summing it all up, we can only make our own decisions in life. I try to make mine as educated as I can. I don't fruitlessly(and to get fucked up) eat a bunch of drugs. I actually do education on the various types and like to become as informed as possible. I feel that everyone should do this. I'm not flaming anyone. To each his own. It is for some people, and it isn't for others. I, too, apologize to you TG for your loss. It DOES sadden me.
I wish that kind of thing never happens. But it does..every day. No one can deny that unfortunately. To all you peeps out there who have chose not to try these drugs..let me pose a question. If you were with a friend who was drinking and they said they loved you? would you believe that they were "enough there" to mean what they said? I think it goes the same for any non-sober state of mind. If you asked me if I loved you, 2 seconds after I JUST woke up, I'd prolly tell you I loved you. Just because I wasn't all there yet. totally sober though. I think is every friends responsibility to be able to recognize these types of things. If they perturb you, ask them about it the next day. Ask them what they meant by that, or ask them to explain themselves in more detail. Welp..I guess I can add this 2gp to my previous 2gp, and now we have 4gp!!!I think we need a group hug. *HUG*CRD[This message has been edited by CrazyRaverDude (edited 23 May 2001).] -=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
CRD said;"So summing it all up, we can only make our own decisions in life."I couldnt agree more. Unfortunately, there is a group of ppl out there who are trying to censor our actions, without any real understanding of the purpose or ramifications of my potential actions. they Censor me, because they want me to fit into their mold, like everyone else who has had state led censorship bred into them.This I dont agree with.If I've taken reasonable care to not hurt anyone else, why cant I have a cone in my own house? I can drive with a blood alcohol reading....why not a ganja reading? why not an E reading? We have a fair idea of the noxious (both physically and socially) effects of Alcohol, but there is very little evidence to suggest that there is anywhere near the danger in taking E, Acid, Dope etc etc...hypocrisy we are fed from day one. I have a right to my own mind. All Your other constitutional rights pale in comparison..and yet you argue that I'm closed minded, for trying to stand up for an open-minded viewpoint?
CRD said;"So summing it all up, we can only make our own decisions in life."I couldnt agree more. Unfortunately, there is a group of ppl out there who are trying to censor our actions, without any real understanding of the purpose or ramifications of my potential actions. they Censor me, because they want me to fit into their mold, like everyone else who has had state led censorship bred into them.This I dont agree with.If I've taken reasonable care to not hurt anyone else, why cant I have a cone in my own house? I can drive with a blood alcohol reading....why not a ganja reading? why not an E reading? We have a fair idea of the noxious (both physically and socially) effects of Alcohol, but there is very little evidence to suggest that there is anywhere near the danger in taking E, Acid, Dope etc etc...hypocrisy we are fed from day one. I have a right to my own mind. All Your other constitutional rights pale in comparison..and yet you argue that I'm closed minded, for trying to stand up for an open-minded viewpoint?
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Thank you Josh for backing up the statment I made about people being addicted to different things, some well outside the realm of drugs. Hell, adrenaline is a drug our body makes and I am addicted to that rush.I am going to agree with Pere in part though. I don't appreciate being lumped as "anti" simply because I have made the choice not to indulge, and that's all it really is, an indulgence. To categorize anyone we don't know as a "druggie" since many use only in a recreational manner, or "anti", these two absolutes, seems to be closed minded. There are times when I advocate use, and I am definately for legalization, even though my personal choices may not illustrate it. In the end I am simply not into absolute statements.For the record, I have smoked pot and ate shrooms. I am not looking at this from an entirely uneducated perspective, just limited in my experience, which is where all of our own perspectives come from. We have no right to attack nor condemn others for what their lives have taught them. I have made a choice, as I expect everyone else to make their own and I am okay with that. I think when people get hyper over it all it is because those fighting against use do it out of love and concern and those for use do it for the right to choose, not out of any naive hatred. I dunno, it's just like abortion/drinking/ gay marriage/playing with fire/public affection and so many other made too controversial issues to me....neither here nor there but a choice of the individual.Just my less than 2 bits...again.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...
Thank you Josh for backing up the statment I made about people being addicted to different things, some well outside the realm of drugs. Hell, adrenaline is a drug our body makes and I am addicted to that rush.I am going to agree with Pere in part though. I don't appreciate being lumped as "anti" simply because I have made the choice not to indulge, and that's all it really is, an indulgence. To categorize anyone we don't know as a "druggie" since many use only in a recreational manner, or "anti", these two absolutes, seems to be closed minded. There are times when I advocate use, and I am definately for legalization, even though my personal choices may not illustrate it. In the end I am simply not into absolute statements.For the record, I have smoked pot and ate shrooms. I am not looking at this from an entirely uneducated perspective, just limited in my experience, which is where all of our own perspectives come from. We have no right to attack nor condemn others for what their lives have taught them. I have made a choice, as I expect everyone else to make their own and I am okay with that. I think when people get hyper over it all it is because those fighting against use do it out of love and concern and those for use do it for the right to choose, not out of any naive hatred. I dunno, it's just like abortion/drinking/ gay marriage/playing with fire/public affection and so many other made too controversial issues to me....neither here nor there but a choice of the individual.Just my less than 2 bits...again.------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
totally - pro choice all the way. Self-determination (without social detriment) all the way.(isnt it a nice day today?)Josh
totally - pro choice all the way. Self-determination (without social detriment) all the way.(isnt it a nice day today?)Josh
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
i'd like to point out (and this isnt even about drugs vs non-drugs) that you all were more than happy to share your opinions. i simply did the same, i didnt even come down on anyone, or tell anyone what to do, i simply stated what i practice, and what i believed, and that was it. and then because it conflicts w/ what you believe you assume that i was passing judgement on you. some of y'all's (is taht a legal contraction?) statements were quite obviously judging me for not drugging myself. it seems that everyone wants to be accepting to everything until it conflicts with what they do or believe. but then who is right? if everyone really does have to decide for themselves as i believe someone just stated, and if everyone's beliefs are alright, then shouldnt my opinion be just as valid as yours? i really hate relative truth b/c of this sort of thing. its only relative for everyone else, the second i state my belief it is no longer relative for me, and i get branded intollerant.re-read my post, i politely disagree with your statement. but at least i never put it between us, if we are really supposed to be friendly here then shouldnt you be able to understand that it is almost impossible for me to agree with everything you believe in? i think what you do is morally wrong and would never do it to myself, but i never put it between us or came down on anyone for their actions. (and if you re-read that last line you'll see it applies to itself too)
i'd like to point out (and this isnt even about drugs vs non-drugs) that you all were more than happy to share your opinions. i simply did the same, i didnt even come down on anyone, or tell anyone what to do, i simply stated what i practice, and what i believed, and that was it. and then because it conflicts w/ what you believe you assume that i was passing judgement on you. some of y'all's (is taht a legal contraction?) statements were quite obviously judging me for not drugging myself. it seems that everyone wants to be accepting to everything until it conflicts with what they do or believe. but then who is right? if everyone really does have to decide for themselves as i believe someone just stated, and if everyone's beliefs are alright, then shouldnt my opinion be just as valid as yours? i really hate relative truth b/c of this sort of thing. its only relative for everyone else, the second i state my belief it is no longer relative for me, and i get branded intollerant.re-read my post, i politely disagree with your statement. but at least i never put it between us, if we are really supposed to be friendly here then shouldnt you be able to understand that it is almost impossible for me to agree with everything you believe in? i think what you do is morally wrong and would never do it to myself, but i never put it between us or came down on anyone for their actions. (and if you re-read that last line you'll see it applies to itself too)
enthusiast
237 posts
237 posts
Posted:
redbrother it is just your choice of language that gets me man. "morally" ?I don't steal,hit,hurt,adultarise(?),rape or pressure people. I always mind my manners (in fact so much it works against me more often than not). Is it your belief that I'm "moraqlly" questionable for my enjoyment of experimentation?You also referred to drug users as irresponsible which I won't even go near (I'll let my well cared for child, pets and house speak for that). Technogrrl acuses us of being "blithering idiots" and having little respect.Dude I don't care how you live your life if we were all the same life'd be shit. It's the approach that you've taken with some of your wording. Your disapproval steps into insulting when you bring other personality traits into a debate about CHOICE.Live long and strong. Peace
redbrother it is just your choice of language that gets me man. "morally" ?I don't steal,hit,hurt,adultarise(?),rape or pressure people. I always mind my manners (in fact so much it works against me more often than not). Is it your belief that I'm "moraqlly" questionable for my enjoyment of experimentation?You also referred to drug users as irresponsible which I won't even go near (I'll let my well cared for child, pets and house speak for that). Technogrrl acuses us of being "blithering idiots" and having little respect.Dude I don't care how you live your life if we were all the same life'd be shit. It's the approach that you've taken with some of your wording. Your disapproval steps into insulting when you bring other personality traits into a debate about CHOICE.Live long and strong. Peace
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
perhaps it would be different in real life, these machines have a way of altering meanings, or perhaps there is no way of telling you my beliefs of what you do without coming off as offensive. i am sorry for offending you, that was not my intention.but please also remember that it is a 2-way street, and ill be honest in saying i was offended as well, and even had to go back and re-read my posts (and edit them) so as to take out anythign that i wrote in anger or frustration, or that might come across the wrong way.im sorry for being offensive, its a communication error, i'll choose to believe that yours was as well. as for the words i used, i stick by them, they are not actually offensive, they only appear that way because of the way they are percieved over this stupid machine. sometimes i can write what i want to say perfectly, and other times i can only express it verbally. i think this might fall under the category of the latter.
perhaps it would be different in real life, these machines have a way of altering meanings, or perhaps there is no way of telling you my beliefs of what you do without coming off as offensive. i am sorry for offending you, that was not my intention.but please also remember that it is a 2-way street, and ill be honest in saying i was offended as well, and even had to go back and re-read my posts (and edit them) so as to take out anythign that i wrote in anger or frustration, or that might come across the wrong way.im sorry for being offensive, its a communication error, i'll choose to believe that yours was as well. as for the words i used, i stick by them, they are not actually offensive, they only appear that way because of the way they are percieved over this stupid machine. sometimes i can write what i want to say perfectly, and other times i can only express it verbally. i think this might fall under the category of the latter.
SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
The only thing that even preturbed me to begin with was the different wording people used to express how they feel about people who use drugs. Everyone has their own opinion, their own morals, and ethics, and feelings about this. All based upon their previous experiences in life. I respect this. *shrug* If no one is trying to offend anyone, then I think people should just be a little more choosey with what the words they use on such a topic. However, I started this thread, just trying to share an experience I had. *shrug* Just thought maybe someone else might have done the same thing sometime, and maybe had a story to tell or something...Either way..mad LOVE ya'll.(damn floridian)No offense intended to anyone. =))(had to edit this again to add this next line in....)And don't forget to keep twirlin' and swirlin'. :P[!PLUR!]-=Crazy Raver Dude=-[This message has been edited by CrazyRaverDude (edited 23 May 2001).]
The only thing that even preturbed me to begin with was the different wording people used to express how they feel about people who use drugs. Everyone has their own opinion, their own morals, and ethics, and feelings about this. All based upon their previous experiences in life. I respect this. *shrug* If no one is trying to offend anyone, then I think people should just be a little more choosey with what the words they use on such a topic. However, I started this thread, just trying to share an experience I had. *shrug* Just thought maybe someone else might have done the same thing sometime, and maybe had a story to tell or something...Either way..mad LOVE ya'll.(damn floridian)No offense intended to anyone. =))(had to edit this again to add this next line in....)And don't forget to keep twirlin' and swirlin'. :P[!PLUR!]-=Crazy Raver Dude=-[This message has been edited by CrazyRaverDude (edited 23 May 2001).]
-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
SILVER Member
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Veteran Member
495 posts
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Posted:
I apologize for any wording I may have chosen that offends anyone. I have edited my messasge(s) to make them more PC for everyone. plur!CRD
I apologize for any wording I may have chosen that offends anyone. I have edited my messasge(s) to make them more PC for everyone. plur!CRD
-=ÇrazyRaverÐude=-
member
383 posts
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
383 posts
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Posted:
hello...I just had to put this in to be more 'correct' - I think if you are a 'SMART' e user - you will not only educate yourself on the side effects from a wide range of sources but also don't over indulge. It can cause very real very severe damage in certain individuals just as it might not harm other individuals. No one knows how susceptible their own brain is to damage cause it varies. It doesn't just sap and damage your 'natural' dopamine levels - it also does the same thing to your seratonin, neuroepherin blahblaherifen etc etc etc levels as well. I guess you'll find out if you went over the top when it hits you in the face later on. I think its great Josh made the valid point about non-drug users perceptions on drug users. I also think its great this has actually been a calmish conversation =)
hello...I just had to put this in to be more 'correct' - I think if you are a 'SMART' e user - you will not only educate yourself on the side effects from a wide range of sources but also don't over indulge. It can cause very real very severe damage in certain individuals just as it might not harm other individuals. No one knows how susceptible their own brain is to damage cause it varies. It doesn't just sap and damage your 'natural' dopamine levels - it also does the same thing to your seratonin, neuroepherin blahblaherifen etc etc etc levels as well. I guess you'll find out if you went over the top when it hits you in the face later on. I think its great Josh made the valid point about non-drug users perceptions on drug users. I also think its great this has actually been a calmish conversation =)
The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King
BRONZE Member
member
829 posts
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
member
829 posts
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posted:
HEY i got an idea..How about we all Kick back, have a beer, smoke a little loco weed, & pop a tab.Then this discussion would really get interesting...and at some point i think everyone would agree, it might not be on the original subject at hand, but at least there would be agreement....hee heeSuper<> my intended hunor on the subject of drugs and alcohol in no way is an attempt to downplay any tragic events that may have happen to you or any of your family and friends. I am sorry for your loss and a I go along with Dianna in offering empathy for your pain or any loss due to the use of illegal drugs and/or alcohol.<>------------------"Only the warrior that hears the call will know when to leave, Where to go" -unknown"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams"- Willy Wonka
HEY i got an idea..How about we all Kick back, have a beer, smoke a little loco weed, & pop a tab.Then this discussion would really get interesting...and at some point i think everyone would agree, it might not be on the original subject at hand, but at least there would be agreement....hee heeSuper<
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear--not absence of fear.
- Mark Twain
One Tyred Guy
203 posts
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
203 posts
Location: Camaiore, Lu, Italy
Posted:
I'm so proud of myself for holding out this long to throw in my voice. I'm really impressed with the level of discourse and intelligent discussion going on in such a hot topic. I think it is extremely valuable to discuss. The only way one can understand another is by listening and I have learned quite a bit from this post...As a HS teacher in the suburbs I have a large amount of experience with drug using kids. Two years ago one of my 15 year olds died as a result of her drug use. Then again, I know that some of my kids would have trouble dealing with their f-ed up families/lives/pressures without drugs. Is the price worth it? Some of you would say yes. Some of you would say no. Both opinions have validity.I would encourage everyone to keep talking and to keep listening.
I'm so proud of myself for holding out this long to throw in my voice. I'm really impressed with the level of discourse and intelligent discussion going on in such a hot topic. I think it is extremely valuable to discuss. The only way one can understand another is by listening and I have learned quite a bit from this post...As a HS teacher in the suburbs I have a large amount of experience with drug using kids. Two years ago one of my 15 year olds died as a result of her drug use. Then again, I know that some of my kids would have trouble dealing with their f-ed up families/lives/pressures without drugs. Is the price worth it? Some of you would say yes. Some of you would say no. Both opinions have validity.I would encourage everyone to keep talking and to keep listening.
PK is a god.. i love the Peeekster.
.:PK:. [poiinthepark founder member]
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing 
STAY SAFE! 
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
As a medical student, I will never touch E again. I did it once. Then, I did some research on it and I discovered what it does to your brain. Basically, the brain has a system called the reticular activating system that you use every day. It is responsible for giving you that feeling that E does, but usually in smaller amounts. E turns it on out of control and burns it out so that you lose the ability to use it on a day-to-day basis.There is some evidence that the damage might partially fix itself after several months, but this is based on some pretty sketchy data and I don't trust it very much. This drug is, dose-per-dose, more neurotoxic than any other, including cocaine and heroin.I love LSD, peyote, and mushrooms, but those don't cause brain damage (although they can cause psychological trauma if you aren't ready for them). I was surprised to learn that, myself, but I read the medical research that's been done and there's no evidence that hallucinogens cause brain damage. And, of course, ALL THINGS IN MODERATION! But please spread the word. It's not just government propaganda, it's the truth. E is horrible for you and if you use it enough times, it will destroy your brain.Personally? My favorite drug is the music. I've rolled harder on a good track than I ever rolled on E.Signed, a candy raver who knows better than to eat candy.-------------------MikeCertified Mad Doctor (in training)
As a medical student, I will never touch E again. I did it once. Then, I did some research on it and I discovered what it does to your brain. Basically, the brain has a system called the reticular activating system that you use every day. It is responsible for giving you that feeling that E does, but usually in smaller amounts. E turns it on out of control and burns it out so that you lose the ability to use it on a day-to-day basis.There is some evidence that the damage might partially fix itself after several months, but this is based on some pretty sketchy data and I don't trust it very much. This drug is, dose-per-dose, more neurotoxic than any other, including cocaine and heroin.I love LSD, peyote, and mushrooms, but those don't cause brain damage (although they can cause psychological trauma if you aren't ready for them). I was surprised to learn that, myself, but I read the medical research that's been done and there's no evidence that hallucinogens cause brain damage. And, of course, ALL THINGS IN MODERATION! But please spread the word. It's not just government propaganda, it's the truth. E is horrible for you and if you use it enough times, it will destroy your brain.Personally? My favorite drug is the music. I've rolled harder on a good track than I ever rolled on E.Signed, a candy raver who knows better than to eat candy.-------------------MikeCertified Mad Doctor (in training)
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
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