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thafitznewbie
8 posts
Location: usa

Posted:
i was just wondering what type of fuels people use when doing fire poi, what fuels last longer, and if different fuels give different effects? i use kerosene myself but i havent tried any other fuels yet. weavesmiley
nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Posted:
We often use white spirit, which everyone else we meet tells us is suicide (they're probably right). It gives decent flames and on 2.5 standard wicks (like they sell on the HoP shop) you get about 3 mins 30 secs from them. But they burn really hot and if you do a few burns in a row the chains leave big burny marks on your arms. These are burns.

And we also use barbeque fluid, which gives you really big cool flames but burn so hot it feels like your hands will set on fire. They burn longer, more like 4 minutes.

Or you can use a mix.

But everyone else uses kerosene/parrafin, at least in my experience. Lightweights wink

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

thafitznewbie
8 posts
Location: usa

Posted:
hey i saw one of your pictures in the gallery called "blue", what were you using there? glowsticks?
The Real Fryed FishGod's illgitament son
1,489 posts
Location: state of confusion

Posted:
i use white gas (guess its the same as white spirits) and ultra-pure lamp oil.......lamp oil burns for a long time (about 4 1/2- 5 min depending on how fast you spin)

You can't avoid pain by fencing yourself from it.
Some times you need the help of others more than anything else
But you have to let them close enough to help......
People want to be needed, I found that out too

GidgBRONZE Member
Super Gidg!!!!
8,506 posts
Location: Portland Oregon USA

Posted:
I use a 50% mix of white gas and the lamp oil like Fish. It gives a nice bright flame, last a long time and I can use the same mix on my fire fans without any excess heat.

But I think there is a thread (or several) like this already.

Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Posted:
Nah, fire. I altered the picture on Photoshop. I cheat.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

orkossmember
28 posts
Location: veracruz, mexico

Posted:
well, i just started using kerosene, but months ago i was a kamikase, me and my friend used gasoline and sometimes diesel, because the diesel last about 20 min or more
flash fireBRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Posted:
Orkoss, Kamikaze indeed.

Please never ever ever use gasoline or diesel again. People around here will come down extremely hard on you for using such unsafe and volitile fuels.

thafitz and orkoss, please look here for fire safety and here for fuel info.

In fact, I highly recommend you both look at our articles on safety, fuel, toxicity and a multitude of really important info.

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vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
something you probably won't find in the articles (at least it wasn't there last time I looked, but that was a while ago) is the use of different fuels for different situations.

first: you should always have a safety on hand of course - but with white gas/coleman fuel, make sure you have a good one who is very attentive!

ok, with that disclaimer, here is what I think - Lamp oil/parafin/kero is the safest as far as not starting unwanted fires is concerned. I try to use that whenever the situation is apporiate for it, though in the states, coleman fuel is much cheaper.

when is it not appropriate to use lamp oil/parafin/kero? when you are performing on a smooth, non-porous surface. this stuf gets very slippery when the ineveitable splatters get on a stage, tile floor, stone (as in cobblestone sidewalks in europe), and other such surfaces. on these surfaces, I feel the sharply increased risk of injury from slipping (fall or just pulling a muscle or twisting a joint) is so great that the safety benifits of using these slippy fuels is over ruled by the danger of other types of injuries.

In these cases, I recommend white gas/coleman, because it is not as slick and evaporates from the surface much faster. on porous and/or rough surfaces (dirt, grass, concrete...), lamp oil etc is ideal

also if you are performing inside, coleman and whitegas is pretty much your only real (low cost) option because of the relatively smokeless nature and the fact that you are probably performing on a smooth surface. this means you have to be extra super duper careful with your safety precaustion since coleman fuel is more dangerous in the volitility department and you are inside. but if you are performing inside, you'd bettter have all your permits and insurance lined up too!

note: diesel is not a particularly volitile fuel - the US military operates all of its vehicles (except the M1 abrams tank) with diesel because you can hit the fuel tanks with high explosive armor peircing shells and it still will not ignite. and anyone who has spun with it knows what a bugger it is to get your wicks going. However, diesel is not a good choice for spinning for other reasons - it smokes extrememly heavily, the fumes are really obnixious, and it is a really dirty, not highly refined fuel. Don't use it for health reasons. all fuels are bad for your health, but some are much worse than others.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

flash fireBRONZE Member
Sporadically Prodigal
2,758 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Posted:
Thanks Vanize smile I wasn 't sure about the diesel... but was too busy to be thorough about it.

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Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
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NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Posted:
Well said Vanzie. Well explained and appropriate.

I PERSONALLY would rather slip and slide on lamp oil than use white gas on a slick surface because I do many wraps and white gas would transfer to my clothing and not go out. I've done it before (both before actually) and as long as you keep your center of gravity relatively calm (which I unfortunately do) I feel comfortable on slippery surfaces.

I still roll my eyes at the price difference. Actually, I'm gonna go check my facts first.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Posted:
OK.. checked facts.

At my local KMart here in the USA.

1 gallon of Coleman is $6
1 quart of Lamp Oil is $2 (so one gallon would be $8.)

BUT... lamp oil spins much longer. I think in the end, per minute, it's a wash. AND... if you buy Citronella oil, it's even cheaper lamp oil AND you don't get bit by mosquitoes. biggrin

And lamp oil is SO much less volitile than whitegas. A crazed audience member or careless DJ kicking over a bottle of lamp oil is annoying to clean up. A crazed audience member or careless DJ kicking over a bottle of whitegas is a body count.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Fryed Fish, I think you will find that white gas is different to white spirits. Suggest checking flash fire’s links.

I agree with what vanize said about using different fuels for different for different situations, but you do need to be extremely careful with white gas, because white gas is basically unleaded petrol without the additives.

The other options are to use Shellsol or Pegasol type products. If you have diesel at one end of the fuel spectrum and petrol at the other. Then these would probably fit near the middle, having a slightly lower ignition temp that kero, and little of the smell.

smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
Written by: nearly_all_gone



We often use white spirit, which everyone else we meet tells us is suicide (they're probably right).





Written by: Fryed Fish



i use white gas (guess its the same as white spirits)





Written by: Stone



Fryed Fish, I think you will find that white gas is different to white spirits.





I know the fuel name situation (different names for the same fuel in different countries etc) is a difficult one.



But I feel the need to point out how confusing these fuel threads are- even as an experienced spinner I find it confusing, I shudder to think of a beginner trying to work out what to use.



I think a good start might be to decide-



1. whether white spirit=white gas



2. what is Colemans



"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
in Houston a gallon of coleman is just under $2 at Academy. You can find lamp oil for $1 a quart, but that is rare - more often it is $2.50 a quart - a factor of 5 price difference!



(Here in Berlin lamp oil is €2.50 per liter, and I can't even find white gas)



true that lamp oil is a longer burn and therefor perhaps you can say you get a somewhat higher value for it, reducing this 5:1 cost ratio a bit.



I also agree that wraps are immenently more doable with parrafin/lamp oil. However, if you wait till the second half of your burn, you needed worry about transfer of flame to your skin or clothes with coleman, and I also find that the metal is actually not as hot at the end of a burn with coleman than with lamp oil (I think there is more evaporative coling from coleman - which makes sense since it is more volitile), and therefor wraps on bare skin aren't as likely to burn (I know NYC will have something to say about doing wraps on bare skin, but that is the way I do 'em, so...).



Also I dance like a fringging maniac when I spin and cannot deal with the slippery aspect at all. finding a center of balance is not really possible for me.



also coleman doesn't continue to put off fumes forever after your wicks go out. I used to think people on this forum were crazy for immediatly dunking wicks after spin, but after using the kind of lamp oil/parrafin they have here in Europe, I see why they do! Otherwise you choke on the fumes! once coleman goes out, it doesn't smoke.



That said, all things being equal (price, no slippery concerns, performing outside, etc) I'm with NYC and would rather spin with lamp oil. coleman/white gas does have its place though.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
coleman is pretty much white gas with additives - for sure. it says so on the can. < edit - ok, only about 50% white gas - see below >



white spirit = ? depends on where you live. Mand posted a great link a while ago about different fuel names in different countries... now where was it? ah... here we go:



international fuel names



by that list, it appears that white spirits means white gas in most places. However, it is confusing, as many places "spirits" is synonymous with solvent alchohol.



there is much confusion to be had in fuel names, and unfortunately I do not think we are going to be able to adopt any sort of HoP convention on the subject. That would be like trying to get Americans to say "open the bonnet" and UKers to say "pop the hood".
EDITED_BY: vanize (1095940621)

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland

Posted:
In ireland colemans is €12 for 500ml!!!! I'm not kidding, and you cant buy bigger quantities of it either...



Unrefined Red Kero comes at about 50c a litre but it is filthy smelly and offencive



Lamp Oil is about €4 a litre. nice burn but still pricey



Parrafin is about €8 for 4 litres, I go through about 4 litres and hour sothis kinda suits me.



It is a pain spinning with parrafin on the street because it is super slippy. I dont slip anymore and can pirrouette like Michael Jackson smile but my biggest concern is for passers by slipping on and getting hurt....



White spirits in ireland is an alternative but i dont and wont use it. Vanice has outlined nicely below the reason for this...



Sorry about the non converted numerals above, but i dont speak american. or english.
EDITED_BY: ado-p (1095940607)

Love is the law.

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
note this passage in the above link especially:

Written by:





Editors Note: "white spirit / white gas" Confusion. (May 1996)



Depending on which country you are in, "white spirit" can be one of several substances. In the UK it is "turpentine substitute" ie. paint thinner and is not recommended for burning.



In Australia it is a cleaning solvent but it is not the same as the stuff in the UK. Again it is not recommended for burning. In New Zealand white spirit used to be a common name for white gas but now days it may be mis-understood as meaning "turpentine substitute".



Referring to one of the brand names is probably a more reliable way of getting what you're after (see the entry for New Zealand).



The Material Safety Data Sheet for Coleman fuel gives the following composition:



· Solvent naphtha (CAS #64742-89-8) 45-50%



· Aliphatic petroleum distillates (CAS #64742-88-7) 45-50%



· Xylene (CAS #1330-20-7) 2%



· Toluene (CAS #108-88-3) 2%





so in other words some people call White gas "white spirits", and it is more or less safe to burn. Other people mean other stuff which is not safe to burn when they talk of white spirits. In technical term though, coleman is only 50% white gas, and true white gas is basically a clean version of what americans call "gasoline" and is not particularly safe for fire spinning as it is too volitile - however, most peeps refer to coleman and other similar, less volitile (than pure white gas) fuels as "white gas" - mainly since it replaced white gas in use and true white gas is quite hard to find anymore.
EDITED_BY: vanize (1095941493)

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

ado-pGOLD Member
Pirate Ninja
3,882 posts
Location: Galway/Ireland

Posted:
You are a man of much knowledge Vanice I have edited my post appropriatly...



Thankgin you.... smile

Love is the law.

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
others stuff of immediate interest:





Written by:



Notes on White Gasoline



writes....... (May 1996)



Coleman fuel and white gasoline are not the same. Coleman fuel contains components that are much less volatile than gasoline (such as naptha). This is what makes it safer to use in a stove or lantern. White gasoline is simply gasoline that contains no antiknock additives. Commercial unleaded gasoline contains additives that will likely damage your stove unless it designed to accept this type of fuel (some are).



I suppose the question really is: Can I use white gas in my stove? Answer is: probably. If it is clean and contains no additives, it will burn just fine. It is more dangerous to handle since it is more volatile, but clean, pure white gas will probably not damage your stove. At least it has never harmed my Svea 123.



Notes on Coleman Fuel



writes.......(Feb 2003)



(Frank Schmidt, Senior Project Engineer, Appliances-Fuels-Patio Grills, The Coleman Co.)



Coleman Fuel was developed in the early 50's as a replacement for "white gas" which in the US was readily available at hardware stores and gas stations. This was the original motor fuel, no tetraeythlead, or additives, also know as casing head gas, water white color. Was also used as a cleaning agent for mostly white materials, also a fuel for outboard motors and early powered lawnmowers. This source started to disappear in the 50's due to technology.



The Coleman fuel of today has not changed in years, it is a blended naphtha with no lead compounds, and a paraffinic type. The benzene content is controlled to .5% by wt. or less and we add a rust inhibitor along with a green dye for identification. I will attach the specification for the fuel for your information. One point, you might find interesting is Coleman Fuel is the preferred fuel for fire eaters, have several inquiries a year as to the benzene content and is it safe.??



I also would like to inquire if your site, could be used by the Coleman Co. as a reference link in our site.



PS: The specification is titled (US Market) there is no other one.









Funny that he says that coleman is the preffered fuel for fire eaters... and then questions its safety for doing so.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
Written by: ado-p


You are a man of much knowledge Vanice I have edited my post appropriatly...

Thankgin you.... smile



Thank you - I actually learned a little myself by going back over that info sheet and have cleaned up my post appropriatly, so you might want to do another once over if you already read it.

Sometimes it is good to rehash old thread topics anew!

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

SterlingspiderBRONZE Member
Senator by day, Sith Lord by night.
128 posts
Location: Suffolk, New York, USA

Posted:
Many people in this thread mention the slipperyness of lamp oil/citronella/parrafin(US) . I'm wondering if I perhaps spin out more then other people? (I also use a spin off bucket for $ and environmental conservation).



I really just dont have the issues with slipperyness that others seem to be having. I find I have to worry more about slipping in wet grass from dew then what my fuel is going to do to the footing.



It just seemed odd.

"If the human brain were simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it"
-Emerson M Pugh

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
I can spin out till I'm blue in the face, but there will still be some splatter during a spin - but I am a variable speed spinner, and the fast secions are what fling out most of the fuels - if you are a slow spinner, then it may not affect you so much if you do spin out a lot. I bet you'd still have problems on stage though...

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Posted:
Hmm, interesting how much these things seem to vary!

Well, I can get turpentine substitute (which is waht it's called) for 10p cheaper than white spirit (it's actually labelled as white spirit substitute - the stuff they sell at Wilkinsons), so the 2 things are defo different in my bit of the UK... I've never tried to burn with turps and don't intent to, it stinks and doesn't give a good burn (apparently). But my white spirit usually gives a decent burn, some smoking at the end, relativley easy ignite and a smell that covers everything I touch, but a very alcoholly smell as opposed to a petrolly smell.

Don't know if that helps.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Posted:
Concerning spinning out and paraffin making floors slippery.

A pair of vinyl coated work gloves are useful for handling wicks as they enable you to squeeze out some of the excess paraffin- you'll still need to spin off but there'll be a lot less excess.

With paraffin you really do have to focus on keeping fuel off the place you're spinning, years back when I used to fire juggle busk I found it to be a real problem as, over several hours small bits of fuel on the ground really add up.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

SterlingspiderBRONZE Member
Senator by day, Sith Lord by night.
128 posts
Location: Suffolk, New York, USA

Posted:
Written by: vanize



I can spin out till I'm blue in the face, but there will still be some splatter during a spin - but I am a variable speed spinner, and the fast secions are what fling out most of the fuels - if you are a slow spinner, then it may not affect you so much if you do spin out a lot. I bet you'd still have problems on stage though...





Hmm, that makes sense. I'm more going for the "dancy" side of spinning and am not so much with the upper body strength (hell, poi and staff are the only reason I HAVE upper body strength). I'm pretty anal about spinning off but I'm not looking to do any stage performances so I'm not too worried. I like concrete.



Written by: onewheeldave

A pair of vinyl coated work gloves are useful for handling wicks as they enable you to squeeze out some of the excess paraffin- you'll still need to spin off but there'll be a lot less excess.





The spin off bucket makes that pretty unnecessary with poi, but that might be very handy with my staff (which is such a pain to spin off). I just hate carrying stuff that stinks of fuel and do what I can to minimize it.

Being dark of skin, ambiguous of heritage (I'm mostly Puerto Rican but most people dont realise that) and stinky of fuel gets you some really concerned looks on a subway in New York.

"If the human brain were simple enough for us to understand, we would be too simple to understand it"
-Emerson M Pugh

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Fuel names are not really that confusing if you do some homework.



Hope this helps Dave smile



White spirit

A colourless solvent made of a mixture of mineral salts. Among its many uses, it is a paint thinner and general-purpose grease remover. White spirit can sometimes be used instead of turpentine and is much cheaper. Flammable and toxic, it dries out the skin's natural oils and may cause an allergy.





White gas (aka Shellite in Australia) is often used as a camping fuel, in liquid fuel stoves. Hence the International Fuel Names doc. This is an informative site with many good fuel links



There are also MSDS



And always READ THE LABEL





biggrin

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
read my posts above and you will see that it is not that simple! white sprits is synonomous with white gas in many parts of the world, not just the thinners you refer to. Your posted link only uses Australian terminology because it is an Australian website! Shellite is almost certainly not pure white gas, despite the fact that people use the name synonomously. It is quite difficult to get pure white gas anywhere in the western world. From what I can tell (I can't find a MSDS on Shellite on the web just now), Shellite and Coleman are close to same thing - which means it is only about 50% white gas.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted:
Woo, hold on to your horse there vanzie. Read my post. Did I say simple?



White spirit was easily to find with a search (UK link btw). Didn’t realise the second link was Australian. Anyhow, the fuel link is Swedish. The much quoted and linked International Fuel Names also appears to b Australian wink



In the International Fuel Names doc, under Table of Fuel Names, Column Three you will see - White Gas, Naphtha, Coleman, Shellite etc. contain 60% Hexane + 40% Heptane? This at best would be an approximation, as different manufactures would most probably have different specifications for their Brands, but you get the idea. Even the stuff people put in their cars varies a fair bit.



“I can't find a MSDS on Shellite?” Did you try Shell? Most of the oil companies have very detailed information on their products as well as process like fractional distillation etc.



While Shellite is almost certainly not exactly the same as white gas, it would be pretty close to what people are using in other countries, in that it is highly volatile and for all intention purposes acts like ULP, without the additives. It’s not diesel is it? I’m guessing here, but Shell Lite, as in Lite petroleum. There is also Mobil Lite.



Its true I have never seen white gas in Australia. But if white gas is so difficult to get anywhere in the western world, then how come so many people use it? Like what is pure???



Btw, I use FireWater, which is similar to Shellsol. There are different grades of Shellsol and Pegasol so you need to know which one is the most suitable for twirling.



And always READ THE LABEL





wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

vanizeSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Posted:
actually, about the only pertinent info I could find on Shellite is that in australia it is produced by some copany called "diggers" (or something like that). Another site said there was in fact a MSDS avaiable for shellite, but failed to mention where. I looked extensively on the Shell site, but can't find anything like it. They give MSDSs for their oils and such, but not for any of the fuels they produce (or if they do, they are not at all obvious).

and yes, I'm sure the mix varies between coleman and shellite, but it won't be a huge difference as they are all basically trying to do the same thing - make white gas safer to use in a stove, and doing that cost effectively will mean roughly the same ingredients in roughly the same proportions.

I said simple because I went to great lengths to show that white spirit does not mean the smae thing to different people, and then you came along and said "A colourless solvent made of a mixture of mineral salts", which is a meaning only some people assume when they hear the phrase. I felt the discussion had taken a step backwards in that regard, hence my reply.

"White gas (aka Shellite in Australia) is often used as a camping fuel, in liquid fuel stoves" was also a step backwards in my opinion because I had also taken the time and enegy to differentiate between what people call "white gas" and what camping fuel actually is (only ~50% white gas).

didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, but I get quite riled up when I am being pedantic! redface

anyway - we are on the same side, I just have my panties in a wad today - sorry.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Posted:
This is Poi forum, not technical help, for the next thread!! man
Take it next time there. And the fuel, use Petrol smile or lamp oil smile, Poi .)

POI THEO(R)IST

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