Forums > Social Discussion > ego, firespinning and performing
Login/Join to ParticipateGOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
so everyone takes something different from firespinning and does it for different reasons. ive met alot of spinners especially in the last 6 months while travelling as a result my standard of what i consider to be good is quite high (not that its about being good but just that it takes quite alot to impress me as far as technical skills go)
i understand that performers do what they do for a living so their reputation is part of their living, still something inside of me jars when i read things that are totally ludicris like
world's largest flaming fire staffs (6 feet long with 2 feet of wicking on both ends)
twirling speeds up to 90 m.p.h.
i suppose these sort of statements being just ludicris can be simply laughed at
when i read stuff like
his flexibility allows him to perform unparalleled tricks around his body
of the impish, chaotic style only he is master of
attained his status as a master of the fire arts
his flexibility and speed are without equal
conjures up the souls of ancient ritual dancers and powerful warriors to inhabit his staff
for some reason it just jars with me. if the videos from the site past and present had reflected this id have been on a plane to go visit but they dont.
but heres the thing
flameoz for example their bios are quite light hearted and dont make outrages claims but they are all excellent performer who do a great show
tepooka doesnt have individual bios but as a organisation, thing is though their claims are justified as their shows are spectular as can be seen in their videos
"Spectacular fire-shows featuring fire spinning, fire eating, fire breathing set against exploding pyrotechnic backdrops and original musical scores. Outrageous stilt walking, sensational street theatre, pyrotechnic mayhem and live drumming"
of all the spinners ive met all of the ones i would consider to be really good are very humble (except knox cos hes totally rubbish
)
so im just wondering what other ppl think about the whole ego thing relating to performing and spinning in general.
so everyone takes something different from firespinning and does it for different reasons. ive met alot of spinners especially in the last 6 months while travelling as a result my standard of what i consider to be good is quite high (not that its about being good but just that it takes quite alot to impress me as far as technical skills go)
i understand that performers do what they do for a living so their reputation is part of their living, still something inside of me jars when i read things that are totally ludicris like
world's largest flaming fire staffs (6 feet long with 2 feet of wicking on both ends)
twirling speeds up to 90 m.p.h.
i suppose these sort of statements being just ludicris can be simply laughed at
when i read stuff like
his flexibility allows him to perform unparalleled tricks around his body
of the impish, chaotic style only he is master of
attained his status as a master of the fire arts
his flexibility and speed are without equal
conjures up the souls of ancient ritual dancers and powerful warriors to inhabit his staff
for some reason it just jars with me. if the videos from the site past and present had reflected this id have been on a plane to go visit but they dont.
but heres the thing
flameoz for example their bios are quite light hearted and dont make outrages claims but they are all excellent performer who do a great show
tepooka doesnt have individual bios but as a organisation, thing is though their claims are justified as their shows are spectular as can be seen in their videos
"Spectacular fire-shows featuring fire spinning, fire eating, fire breathing set against exploding pyrotechnic backdrops and original musical scores. Outrageous stilt walking, sensational street theatre, pyrotechnic mayhem and live drumming"
of all the spinners ive met all of the ones i would consider to be really good are very humble (except knox cos hes totally rubbish
) so im just wondering what other ppl think about the whole ego thing relating to performing and spinning in general.
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
BRONZE Member
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
I know a few profesional performers who never come to Spitz
in London, as if it is beneath them, and they don't want
their ideas stolen (!) And truth is, in comparison to many
of the people at Spitz, they are pretty crap.
I suppose when it's your job, your percieved skill becomes
more important, and an unfortunate opportunity for ego
games.
I know I'm just as suseptible to these games as anyone.
But when I see something amazing or someone just sooo good,
I notice myself smiling and happy and inspired and so I
don't worry too much about my minor arrogances (no realy,
they're minor I tell you!)
I think the amazing people who invest a lot of time and
energy teaching anything they know to others who want to
learn, set a great example, and teach more than they
realize.
I know a few profesional performers who never come to Spitz
in London, as if it is beneath them, and they don't want
their ideas stolen (!) And truth is, in comparison to many
of the people at Spitz, they are pretty crap.
I suppose when it's your job, your percieved skill becomes
more important, and an unfortunate opportunity for ego
games.
I know I'm just as suseptible to these games as anyone.
But when I see something amazing or someone just sooo good,
I notice myself smiling and happy and inspired and so I
don't worry too much about my minor arrogances (no realy,
they're minor I tell you!)
I think the amazing people who invest a lot of time and
energy teaching anything they know to others who want to
learn, set a great example, and teach more than they
realize.
~peace is a fire~
addict
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
Posted:
You're damn right. When I first started off I looked at a lot of pages from artists etc. And some would just make my toes curl. (dutch expression)
And now I'm a little more mature in the fire arts I almost vomit when I see those kinds of statements. That's why I think Jason Garfield is one of the greatast, he put's his mouth where the money is. (a non-dutch expression) www.jasongarfield.com
But indeed, leave your bios and statements light-hearted and let the performance tell what your worth. But the biggest problem is that non-juggeling folk are just as in aaahhh with a three ball cascade as with a 9 beat BHB weave, we see the diffrece and the hard work in tricks, but if your not in the game, you don't see any diffrence.
You're damn right. When I first started off I looked at a lot of pages from artists etc. And some would just make my toes curl. (dutch expression)
And now I'm a little more mature in the fire arts I almost vomit when I see those kinds of statements. That's why I think Jason Garfield is one of the greatast, he put's his mouth where the money is. (a non-dutch expression) www.jasongarfield.com
But indeed, leave your bios and statements light-hearted and let the performance tell what your worth. But the biggest problem is that non-juggeling folk are just as in aaahhh with a three ball cascade as with a 9 beat BHB weave, we see the diffrece and the hard work in tricks, but if your not in the game, you don't see any diffrence.
Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Pooh-Bah
2,211 posts
Location: London, Wales (UK)
Posted:
Well do remember that the blurb is marketing - they have to sell themselves to folks so even if the spinner in question might giggle at their own bio, the wanky write up could attract the punters who see the fire performance as something mystical!
Have to say I myself am intruiged to meet the guy who has powerful warriors inhabiting his staff!!! Sounds very kinky ; )
Well do remember that the blurb is marketing - they have to sell themselves to folks so even if the spinner in question might giggle at their own bio, the wanky write up could attract the punters who see the fire performance as something mystical!
Have to say I myself am intruiged to meet the guy who has powerful warriors inhabiting his staff!!! Sounds very kinky ; )
Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.
- W B Yeats
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Spot on.
Those who use write-ups like that almost certainly don't care if people on HOP find it laugeable or wrong, they care about whether a bit of marketing, exaggeration etc will get them more bookings.
Only a very, very few truly execptionally skilled spinners will make a living purely on their spinning ability; whereas a mediocre spinner with a good business sense and understanding of self promotion can do very well.
Written by: Kat
Well do remember that the blurb is marketing -
Spot on.
Those who use write-ups like that almost certainly don't care if people on HOP find it laugeable or wrong, they care about whether a bit of marketing, exaggeration etc will get them more bookings.
Only a very, very few truly execptionally skilled spinners will make a living purely on their spinning ability; whereas a mediocre spinner with a good business sense and understanding of self promotion can do very well.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
I think you have to have some ego to be a male model, and possibly quite a lot more to be a stripper. 
Jason Garfield I wouldn't book, not because of his website, cos his bad attitude is part of his act. More because he's taken that attitude a bit too far into real life. He in fact is a jerk. (IMHO, because of certain matters relating to juggling)
I'm sure you can perform well and not have an ego about it, but it's the learning to perform that takes the ego. You have to be kinda thinking: Yeah I'm really good, people will like what I do. Otherwise you're never going to perform, and your mind won't have the right attitude to get better at performing.
That's not to say that ego always helps, if you had too high an opinion of yourself, you would never improve. If you watch a performance that wasn't perfect and your ego doesn't take a battering, then you wouldn't have any desire to get better.
I think a little bit helps to perform, and can be a useful factor in motivating you to improve.
G'damn, an on-topic post!
Written by: ben-ja-men
so im just wondering what other ppl think about the whole ego thing relating to performing and spinning in general.
I think you have to have some ego to be a male model, and possibly quite a lot more to be a stripper.
Jason Garfield I wouldn't book, not because of his website, cos his bad attitude is part of his act. More because he's taken that attitude a bit too far into real life. He in fact is a jerk. (IMHO, because of certain matters relating to juggling)
I'm sure you can perform well and not have an ego about it, but it's the learning to perform that takes the ego. You have to be kinda thinking: Yeah I'm really good, people will like what I do. Otherwise you're never going to perform, and your mind won't have the right attitude to get better at performing.
That's not to say that ego always helps, if you had too high an opinion of yourself, you would never improve. If you watch a performance that wasn't perfect and your ego doesn't take a battering, then you wouldn't have any desire to get better.
I think a little bit helps to perform, and can be a useful factor in motivating you to improve.
G'damn, an on-topic post!
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
addict
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
Posted:
So Garfield is a jerk in real life? That's a shame if it were only his act. It would be damn funny...
So Garfield is a jerk in real life? That's a shame if it were only his act. It would be damn funny...
Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
I dunnoe about real lifes, but some things he's said online have made me feel that way. I don't want anybody else to think he's a jerk. He's probably all right. I haven't met him, I'm in no position to judge.
I dunnoe about real lifes, but some things he's said online have made me feel that way. I don't want anybody else to think he's a jerk. He's probably all right. I haven't met him, I'm in no position to judge.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
member
39 posts
Location: Brighton / Southampton
39 posts
Location: Brighton / Southampton
Posted:
i'm not actually very good, in the grand scheme of things, so i see things from the opposite point of view to most of you guys.
When i'm spinning with a group, there is always at least one guy (nearly always a guy!) who is blatantly loving themself, getting a buzz from being better than the rest; liking to think they have an audience even tho they're just practising.
And i don't kno; they just don't seem to have as much fun as the people who take it less seriously. if you ever see the look on one of these characters' faces when they mess a move up, you'll know what i mean.
The main reason I like to spin is the almost Zen sense of calm it brings to me. Showing your skills off in front of a crowd is fun, givs u a real ego boost, but i think if that's the only reason you do it then doesn't all the fun go out of just spinning in a park with friends, or in your garden alone??
i'm not actually very good, in the grand scheme of things, so i see things from the opposite point of view to most of you guys.
When i'm spinning with a group, there is always at least one guy (nearly always a guy!) who is blatantly loving themself, getting a buzz from being better than the rest; liking to think they have an audience even tho they're just practising.
And i don't kno; they just don't seem to have as much fun as the people who take it less seriously. if you ever see the look on one of these characters' faces when they mess a move up, you'll know what i mean.
The main reason I like to spin is the almost Zen sense of calm it brings to me. Showing your skills off in front of a crowd is fun, givs u a real ego boost, but i think if that's the only reason you do it then doesn't all the fun go out of just spinning in a park with friends, or in your garden alone??
Check t'ya bongall rass klan - Eh!
(chilltheworldout)
Lyreecalbombstylee...
BRONZE Member
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
Wow - Jason Garfield has some awesome stuff!!
11 ball flash!
I still like 5 club backcrosses most - beautiful pattern.
Wow - Jason Garfield has some awesome stuff!!
11 ball flash!
I still like 5 club backcrosses most - beautiful pattern.
~peace is a fire~
addict
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
465 posts
Location: Netherlands
Posted:
I've never met a guy as Tomm describes. Never saw one in our group. So it's me then. Sorry guys. 
I know Jason Garfield is great and he hates people that copy or don't practice for their art. He says some very funny things about them. And it's funny because it's true.
I've never met a guy as Tomm describes. Never saw one in our group. So it's me then. Sorry guys.
I know Jason Garfield is great and he hates people that copy or don't practice for their art. He says some very funny things about them. And it's funny because it's true.
Hmm, there's gotta be something round and shiny, I can play with
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
ok first off its pole dancing not stripping thank you very much theres a big difference i dont think theres anything wrong with ego, everyone has one its just a question of whether the way in which it manifests itself is healthy or not
Written by: mcp
I think you have to have some ego to be a male model, and possibly quite a lot more to be a stripper.
ok first off its pole dancing not stripping thank you very much theres a big difference
i dont think theres anything wrong with ego, everyone has one its just a question of whether the way in which it manifests itself is healthy or not Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
At the very least, you could please cite the source where you found these statements, because it is our own website and yes, as it has been stated, the Biographies are nothing more than exagerrated advertising with some roots in the individual styles and personalities of our spinners.. Please keep them in-context.
Original website: www.flamingsphere.homestead.com/biography.html
(speaking of, I need to do some cleanup on that, thank you!)
Or are you just still venting about the Lunar Fest performance?
[Old link]
We've never misrepresented ourselves here on the boards or publicly, and none of us have EVER downed on any other spinners, we have no right to do so. It has nothing to do with ego, it's all about selling the idea that we're going to show them (the prospective customer) something a little bit mysterious, a little bit other-worldly, and writing creative descriptions of ourselves is just plain fun, sort of a reward for when a student gets good enough to perform on-stage.
If I were to be completely dull (though brutally honest), the above statements would read:
"does a lot of behind-the-back stuff"
"freestyles well"
"got good enough to spin fire instead of tennis balls"
"does FAST behind-the-back stuff"
"spins staff, and is a history major in college"
You gonna pay to see that?
Written by: ben-ja-men
when i read stuff like
his flexibility allows him to perform unparalleled tricks around his body
of the impish, chaotic style only he is master of
attained his status as a master of the fire arts
his flexibility and speed are without equal
conjures up the souls of ancient ritual dancers and powerful warriors to inhabit his staff
At the very least, you could please cite the source where you found these statements, because it is our own website and yes, as it has been stated, the Biographies are nothing more than exagerrated advertising with some roots in the individual styles and personalities of our spinners.. Please keep them in-context.
Original website: www.flamingsphere.homestead.com/biography.html
(speaking of, I need to do some cleanup on that, thank you!)
Or are you just still venting about the Lunar Fest performance?
[Old link]
We've never misrepresented ourselves here on the boards or publicly, and none of us have EVER downed on any other spinners, we have no right to do so. It has nothing to do with ego, it's all about selling the idea that we're going to show them (the prospective customer) something a little bit mysterious, a little bit other-worldly, and writing creative descriptions of ourselves is just plain fun, sort of a reward for when a student gets good enough to perform on-stage.
If I were to be completely dull (though brutally honest), the above statements would read:
"does a lot of behind-the-back stuff"
"freestyles well"
"got good enough to spin fire instead of tennis balls"
"does FAST behind-the-back stuff"
"spins staff, and is a history major in college"
You gonna pay to see that?
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
i'm with ya dio.
we have to be able to sell ourselves somehow.
but there are good and bad ways to do it.
i think you might be a little over the top and cheesy, but thats just me. we're pretty cheesy too.
but i'm going to egotistically ignore the rest of the thread.
i'm with ya dio.
we have to be able to sell ourselves somehow.
but there are good and bad ways to do it.
i think you might be a little over the top and cheesy, but thats just me. we're pretty cheesy too.
but i'm going to egotistically ignore the rest of the thread.
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
enthusiast
275 posts
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
275 posts
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Posted:
everyone has an ego, otherwise they don't have a 'self'... ego is the part of you that makes you different from other people. An exaggerated ego needs external support, and manifests itself in self-promotion and trying to get others to prop up your view of yourself... which is a dodgy path because as soon as the support disappears you're left feeling like there's nothing left... particularly if the exaggerated opinion of yourself was built using external support.
Performers need to be able to engage with an audience to get a reaction from them, and in doing so, can end up in a position where they need audience adulation to feel like they're doing well, and so big themselves up whenever they can... But a performer who doesn’t need or want audience attention is never going to be successful, cos if you don't care if the crowd is going 'wow' or not, you won't try to get them to do so, and so they wont. Double edged sword time...
Personally, I’d make a crap performer; firstly, sock poi just don't have the instant 'wow' that fire has, and i can't really be bothered with fire (both times I’ve tried it I’ve ended up setting fire to my hair, and i like my hair too much to see it burned off...); and secondly, i see spinning as a puzzle, and i like finding out the rules that define where i can put myself in relation to the poi, and then mixing the rules together to make new patterns, or dismantling stuff i know to see how it fits in with other moves, all in the search for fundamental patterns that lead to an internally consistent naming scheme that will mean i can find new patterns by filling in the gaps between stuff i already know.
the ego boost i get from thinking of a mix i haven’t tried yet and then nailing it far outstrips anything i get from showing other people what i can do. (mostly because non spinners don't give a toss, and just want some flames, and, well, that goes for most spinners i see regularly too...)
--ben
everyone has an ego, otherwise they don't have a 'self'... ego is the part of you that makes you different from other people. An exaggerated ego needs external support, and manifests itself in self-promotion and trying to get others to prop up your view of yourself... which is a dodgy path because as soon as the support disappears you're left feeling like there's nothing left... particularly if the exaggerated opinion of yourself was built using external support.
Performers need to be able to engage with an audience to get a reaction from them, and in doing so, can end up in a position where they need audience adulation to feel like they're doing well, and so big themselves up whenever they can... But a performer who doesn’t need or want audience attention is never going to be successful, cos if you don't care if the crowd is going 'wow' or not, you won't try to get them to do so, and so they wont. Double edged sword time...
Personally, I’d make a crap performer; firstly, sock poi just don't have the instant 'wow' that fire has, and i can't really be bothered with fire (both times I’ve tried it I’ve ended up setting fire to my hair, and i like my hair too much to see it burned off...); and secondly, i see spinning as a puzzle, and i like finding out the rules that define where i can put myself in relation to the poi, and then mixing the rules together to make new patterns, or dismantling stuff i know to see how it fits in with other moves, all in the search for fundamental patterns that lead to an internally consistent naming scheme that will mean i can find new patterns by filling in the gaps between stuff i already know.
the ego boost i get from thinking of a mix i haven’t tried yet and then nailing it far outstrips anything i get from showing other people what i can do. (mostly because non spinners don't give a toss, and just want some flames, and, well, that goes for most spinners i see regularly too...)
--ben
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
Ahh ego, the blade we all dance. It's hard to tell others of your accomplishments without breaching the egotistical boundary. To a point you want others to know who you are. Your comments are validated by that.
I've meet Jason Garfied and even performed on the same stage. He's not that bad a guy, just don't touch him. He is a prodigy with tallent coming out his ears. Because of this he was forced in to performing. He is actually really shy. In order to cope with the fame and performing he created a unique character. If he really was such a jerk he would not teach. But he does teach. He would not perform at small festivals. But he does Lodi juggling festival and Damento to name a few. Even though his character is a jerk he is an ok guy. How do you deal with ego when you are one of the best?
Someone who has to be mentioned is Robert Heart. Yes he has done amazing things for spinning, but he has lost total sight of the art. I spent an evening trying to get him off his soapbox of ego and just talk to me. It was at my group's community practice. We offered to let him use our equipment, fuel and safety if he wanted to spin. But he said he never spins fire unless he is being paid.
Don't judge someone's ego by their webiste, it is a marketing tool. Judge them in person.
Ahh ego, the blade we all dance. It's hard to tell others of your accomplishments without breaching the egotistical boundary. To a point you want others to know who you are. Your comments are validated by that.
I've meet Jason Garfied and even performed on the same stage. He's not that bad a guy, just don't touch him.
He is a prodigy with tallent coming out his ears. Because of this he was forced in to performing. He is actually really shy. In order to cope with the fame and performing he created a unique character. If he really was such a jerk he would not teach. But he does teach. He would not perform at small festivals. But he does Lodi juggling festival and Damento to name a few. Even though his character is a jerk he is an ok guy. How do you deal with ego when you are one of the best?Someone who has to be mentioned is Robert Heart. Yes he has done amazing things for spinning, but he has lost total sight of the art. I spent an evening trying to get him off his soapbox of ego and just talk to me. It was at my group's community practice. We offered to let him use our equipment, fuel and safety if he wanted to spin. But he said he never spins fire unless he is being paid.
Don't judge someone's ego by their webiste, it is a marketing tool. Judge them in person.
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
I think this sentiment applies to all the arts across the board, not just spinning.
Thing is, it takes a certain amount of ego to be a performer in the first place, as opposed to just doing it with your friends or alone in your backyard. I mean, if you're going to "perform," at a certain level you have to believe that you're good enough or interesting enough that people will want to watch you. Same goes for any art...writing, visual arts, whatever. If you're putting the work out into the world, at some level you've got to think it's worthy of people's attention.
But it's a fine line between healthy ego-strength and being egotistical.
Written by: onewheeldave
Only a very, very few truly execptionally skilled spinners will make a living purely on their spinning ability; whereas a mediocre spinner with a good business sense and understanding of self promotion can do very well.
I think this sentiment applies to all the arts across the board, not just spinning.
Thing is, it takes a certain amount of ego to be a performer in the first place, as opposed to just doing it with your friends or alone in your backyard. I mean, if you're going to "perform," at a certain level you have to believe that you're good enough or interesting enough that people will want to watch you. Same goes for any art...writing, visual arts, whatever. If you're putting the work out into the world, at some level you've got to think it's worthy of people's attention.
But it's a fine line between healthy ego-strength and being egotistical.
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
I feel quite privaliged to be not only awesome at poi, staff, doubles and contact juggling - but I'm toe-curlingly humble as-well.
Which is nice.
Seriously though, I've only met one group of performers who's actual skill:perceived skill ratio was waaaaaaay out (no-one on HoP I hasten to add), but as many people have said, what's written in someone's promo package, and what they're like in real-life are very seperate things.
Dio hit it spot on - if everyone was honest and wrote "Our group can spin poi pretty well, move around without looking too much like a demented octopus, don't often set themselves on fire and will wear make-up if paid enough" wouldn't get you many gigs.
On a side note:
When I'm zoned into my CJ or poi, I often pretend there is an audience there. In terms of performance, you should always perform towards your audience - keep your planes facing them for example - so personally I don't see this as a bad thing.
It's the same as practising in front of a mirror - which to an outside would look very vain (or is that vane? Hmmmmm) but for a performer is a necessity I reckon.
*wanders off to check the Burnt Toast website to see what I wrote a year ago*
I feel quite privaliged to be not only awesome at poi, staff, doubles and contact juggling - but I'm toe-curlingly humble as-well.
Which is nice.
Seriously though, I've only met one group of performers who's actual skill:perceived skill ratio was waaaaaaay out (no-one on HoP I hasten to add), but as many people have said, what's written in someone's promo package, and what they're like in real-life are very seperate things.
Dio hit it spot on - if everyone was honest and wrote "Our group can spin poi pretty well, move around without looking too much like a demented octopus, don't often set themselves on fire and will wear make-up if paid enough" wouldn't get you many gigs.
On a side note:
Written by:
...liking to think they have an audience even tho they're just practising
When I'm zoned into my CJ or poi, I often pretend there is an audience there. In terms of performance, you should always perform towards your audience - keep your planes facing them for example - so personally I don't see this as a bad thing.
It's the same as practising in front of a mirror - which to an outside would look very vain (or is that vane? Hmmmmm) but for a performer is a necessity I reckon.
*wanders off to check the Burnt Toast website to see what I wrote a year ago*
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
i didnt quote the site as i didnt want it to be taken as a personal attack on the group so i removed most of the text so it wasnt obvious except to the person who wrote it where it came from.
a friend of mine whos a events coordinator said to me any performer is only as good as their last performance, id say a good promo video is a much better way of getting work than any statement wouldnt you?
Written by: Dio
At the very least, you could please cite the source where you found these statements, because it is our own website and yes, as it has been stated, the Biographies are nothing more than exagerrated advertising with some roots in the individual styles and personalities of our spinners.. Please keep them in-context.
i didnt quote the site as i didnt want it to be taken as a personal attack on the group so i removed most of the text so it wasnt obvious except to the person who wrote it where it came from.
Written by: Dio
If I were to be completely dull (though brutally honest), the above statements would read:
"does a lot of behind-the-back stuff"
"freestyles well"
"got good enough to spin fire instead of tennis balls"
"does FAST behind-the-back stuff"
"spins staff, and is a history major in college"
You gonna pay to see that?
a friend of mine whos a events coordinator said to me any performer is only as good as their last performance, id say a good promo video is a much better way of getting work than any statement wouldnt you?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
HoP Mechanical Engineer
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
729 posts
Location: OK, USA
Posted:
*edited out the previous long-winded rant I initially wrote*
I'll change the site to be more down-to-earth then.
EDITED_BY: Dio (1102726338)
*edited out the previous long-winded rant I initially wrote*
I'll change the site to be more down-to-earth then.
EDITED_BY: Dio (1102726338)
What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
I think those bios do what their supposed to do....convey confidence, skill, and passion in one short paragraph. I know alot of people may construe them as egotistical . but they are artists bios,,, and that's the nature of the beast it's,, all about marketing.
I'm a professoinal artist who's been making a living airbrushing hats for the past seven years and I've found the only way to sell them is for me to set up shop in an art market and retail them myself as I've found they don't really move that well in stores. The marketing tactics I use are,,,,, " I painted these,,,they're cool,,,,you should buy one" and it works,,,really well. Now I never went to art school, in fact I have a background in biochemistry and started painting on T-shirts as a pastime,, one thing let to another I figured out I could make a living with my art, quit my government job and never looked back.
The point I'm trying to make is,,,,you NEED the ego thing to promote yourself, sure I still get laughed at, you should see the stuff I paint but I realise that I can't appeal to everyone but if I took the negative criticisim to heart, I'd still be sitting in some stuffy office counting the days till retirement. And as to the cheezy factor, it's all a matter of taste isn't it? I personally find an air of mystery to bios written in that style.
I feel kinda cheezy taking the windmill down onto one knee, but most people seem to think it looks pretty cool, however it did take me a few weeks to convince myself to keep doing it.
One thing to keep in mind, this is a REALLY tough audience, what made up experienced spinners and all. As Tenticle put it,,most people don't give a toss....
and I'm assuming he refers to technical spinning ability. Most non spinners just want to see the dancing with the fire, as evidenced by people telling me I was awesome after three weeks of spinning. Which leads me to another topic....I'm not seeing alot of reference to the dance aspect of these arts. here on HOP... Except from the Oklahoma crew,,,,,how come??
I think those bios do what their supposed to do....convey confidence, skill, and passion in one short paragraph. I know alot of people may construe them as egotistical . but they are artists bios,,, and that's the nature of the beast it's,, all about marketing.
I'm a professoinal artist who's been making a living airbrushing hats for the past seven years and I've found the only way to sell them is for me to set up shop in an art market and retail them myself as I've found they don't really move that well in stores. The marketing tactics I use are,,,,, " I painted these,,,they're cool,,,,you should buy one" and it works,,,really well. Now I never went to art school, in fact I have a background in biochemistry and started painting on T-shirts as a pastime,, one thing let to another I figured out I could make a living with my art, quit my government job and never looked back.
The point I'm trying to make is,,,,you NEED the ego thing to promote yourself, sure I still get laughed at, you should see the stuff I paint but I realise that I can't appeal to everyone but if I took the negative criticisim to heart, I'd still be sitting in some stuffy office counting the days till retirement. And as to the cheezy factor, it's all a matter of taste isn't it? I personally find an air of mystery to bios written in that style.
I feel kinda cheezy taking the windmill down onto one knee, but most people seem to think it looks pretty cool, however it did take me a few weeks to convince myself to keep doing it.
One thing to keep in mind, this is a REALLY tough audience, what made up experienced spinners and all. As Tenticle put it,,most people don't give a toss....
and I'm assuming he refers to technical spinning ability. Most non spinners just want to see the dancing with the fire, as evidenced by people telling me I was awesome after three weeks of spinning. Which leads me to another topic....I'm not seeing alot of reference to the dance aspect of these arts. here on HOP... Except from the Oklahoma crew,,,,,how come??
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
I think there isn't a great emphasis on dance because it is hard to describe dancing in text. The more technical ability you have, the more ability you have to dance with your poi. There's only so much you can do while spinning a 3 beat weave, but if you can throw in 4 more beats in there, do it anywhere on your body (behind the back, between the legs, whatever), you have more time and more opportunity to dance.
As for the topic: I've yet to see a good spinner with a big ego. I've seen an insane amount of amazing spinners with no ego. If you spend all your time talking about how good you are and no time actually getting good, how COULD you be good?
I think there isn't a great emphasis on dance because it is hard to describe dancing in text. The more technical ability you have, the more ability you have to dance with your poi. There's only so much you can do while spinning a 3 beat weave, but if you can throw in 4 more beats in there, do it anywhere on your body (behind the back, between the legs, whatever), you have more time and more opportunity to dance.
As for the topic: I've yet to see a good spinner with a big ego. I've seen an insane amount of amazing spinners with no ego. If you spend all your time talking about how good you are and no time actually getting good, how COULD you be good?
BRONZE Member
Arf! Can I have a biscut?
288 posts
Location: North America, Mid West, USA
Arf! Can I have a biscut?
288 posts
Location: North America, Mid West, USA
Posted:
Simply stated :
If you don't hype yourself, nobody will hype you. If you're in a buisness selling yourself, you do all you can to make the product look good.
Believe me, I exist in an industry that exists on stuff like this. Not fun when you gotta put your waders on before opening e-mail...
-Socks
Simply stated :
If you don't hype yourself, nobody will hype you. If you're in a buisness selling yourself, you do all you can to make the product look good.
Believe me, I exist in an industry that exists on stuff like this. Not fun when you gotta put your waders on before opening e-mail...
-Socks
I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.
"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
hyping yourself is ok as long as you can back it up later, thats where the proof is
hyping yourself is ok as long as you can back it up later, thats where the proof is
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
lord high king of swingers *(now defunct)**(but will rise again ! !)*
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
165 posts
Location: wild wiltshire
Posted:
folks can say what they want really, as the proof is all in the pudding.
i know many really good performers, who seemingly don't get all the work they deserve, most likely because they can't be arsed to self promote, but i always see performers with low skill levels out there, working for peanuts and devaluing the hours and hours of hard work others put in to their shows, whilst the club/event organizer gets away with a measly 50 quid donation !
we should have a union !
folks can do as they please but it always leaves me gobsmacked when i meet yet another spotty 17 year old, who can do next to no tricks, has no concept of costume and goes around telling everyone they are a fire performer !
I get paid for spinning and stilt walking when i go out and look for it, and put my heart and soul into creating something as original and personal as i can. yet I still cannot find the space in my heart to big myself up that much.
as i say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or in this case wether or not you get bored half way through a show or risk having an amature throw his sixteen foot long 3000 lumen mega watt titanium fire staff in my face, just because some slime bag doesn't want to spend the money on real talent !
folks can say what they want really, as the proof is all in the pudding.
i know many really good performers, who seemingly don't get all the work they deserve, most likely because they can't be arsed to self promote, but i always see performers with low skill levels out there, working for peanuts and devaluing the hours and hours of hard work others put in to their shows, whilst the club/event organizer gets away with a measly 50 quid donation !
we should have a union !
folks can do as they please but it always leaves me gobsmacked when i meet yet another spotty 17 year old, who can do next to no tricks, has no concept of costume and goes around telling everyone they are a fire performer !
I get paid for spinning and stilt walking when i go out and look for it, and put my heart and soul into creating something as original and personal as i can. yet I still cannot find the space in my heart to big myself up that much.
as i say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or in this case wether or not you get bored half way through a show or risk having an amature throw his sixteen foot long 3000 lumen mega watt titanium fire staff in my face, just because some slime bag doesn't want to spend the money on real talent !
fly fairies, fly high, fly wide and take no prisoners !!!!!!
SILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
coming to a country near you
4,696 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia
Posted:
wouldn't circus arts/street performers come under the micellanious worker union?
thats what we have in australia
wouldn't circus arts/street performers come under the micellanious worker union?
thats what we have in australia
"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"
jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley
SILVER Member
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
enthusiast
270 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
As a trained "Marketing Professional" I have to put in my bits here... I think because hype gets a lot of attention, people think that "marketing" is all about hype (and therefore overselling yourself). That is NOT what marketing is about. There are a bunch of different tactics you can use, but at the end of the day, you really need to look at things from the customer's perspective.
If you try to over-hype your group, the customer can spot it from a mile away. And even if they fall for it, they're going to be sorely disappointed when they see what you have to offer. Will you have a long-term relationship with that event promoter? Will they refer you to their friends? Probably not.
I'm not saying you should just sit still and not persue work. By all means, get out there and promote yourself! But do it with a professional looking web site, and by building relationships with people who will bring you gigs.
As has been pointed out many times before, most professional performers aren't on HOP. Why? Because audiences really don't care about the technical nuances. They care about stage presence and presentation (see Rob's comments in the Lunar Festival thread about staging, for instance). The audience wants to be entertained... and if you can wow them with a trick or two, that's a good thing, but they're not going to care if there were 7 beats in that weave or 5.
If there's a competition in terms of which poi performers will win a gig, I usually say, "the dancers win." Performers with dance and theater training, who know how to entertain an audience, choreograph a show, dance gracefully, tell a story, etc. etc. will beat the technical jugglers any day. And I disagree with MilleniuM -- technical ability is NOT a prerequisite for dancing with poi... we've all met the hot sexy women that just do the weave but can capture everyone's attention.
Which is not to say that there's no hope for technical juggly spinning. At some point, audiences who see a lot of fire spinning get jaded and demand more. People who are both dancy AND technical can satisfy the need for more daring feats... and they can work it into a show. If you're really serious about performing, you need to work on all apects of your performance.
Another thing that people often lose track of is that performers need to be much more consistent with their moves than casual spinners. They may have to do a particular move on a particular cue and hit that cue every single show, 2 shows a night, 5 nights a week. Can you do a hyperloop 100% of the time?
Taking this all the way back to promotion, I also want to point out that there are also other aspects to being a professional performer. Fire spinners are notoriously flakey, while professional performers are reliable. Pros show up on time, are well-rehearsed, prepare and plan for the gig, have performers' insurance, get the appropriate fire permits, and value their relationships with stage managers and event promoters. This is a lot of hard work, and that's part of why the pros get paid a lot more than a group of flakey spinners who just want to get into the party for free (I fall into the latter category). That, by the way, is also a lesson for the promoters out there -- you get what you pay for!
As a trained "Marketing Professional" I have to put in my bits here... I think because hype gets a lot of attention, people think that "marketing" is all about hype (and therefore overselling yourself). That is NOT what marketing is about. There are a bunch of different tactics you can use, but at the end of the day, you really need to look at things from the customer's perspective.
If you try to over-hype your group, the customer can spot it from a mile away. And even if they fall for it, they're going to be sorely disappointed when they see what you have to offer. Will you have a long-term relationship with that event promoter? Will they refer you to their friends? Probably not.
I'm not saying you should just sit still and not persue work. By all means, get out there and promote yourself! But do it with a professional looking web site, and by building relationships with people who will bring you gigs.
As has been pointed out many times before, most professional performers aren't on HOP. Why? Because audiences really don't care about the technical nuances. They care about stage presence and presentation (see Rob's comments in the Lunar Festival thread about staging, for instance). The audience wants to be entertained... and if you can wow them with a trick or two, that's a good thing, but they're not going to care if there were 7 beats in that weave or 5.
If there's a competition in terms of which poi performers will win a gig, I usually say, "the dancers win." Performers with dance and theater training, who know how to entertain an audience, choreograph a show, dance gracefully, tell a story, etc. etc. will beat the technical jugglers any day. And I disagree with MilleniuM -- technical ability is NOT a prerequisite for dancing with poi... we've all met the hot sexy women that just do the weave but can capture everyone's attention.
Which is not to say that there's no hope for technical juggly spinning. At some point, audiences who see a lot of fire spinning get jaded and demand more. People who are both dancy AND technical can satisfy the need for more daring feats... and they can work it into a show. If you're really serious about performing, you need to work on all apects of your performance.
Another thing that people often lose track of is that performers need to be much more consistent with their moves than casual spinners. They may have to do a particular move on a particular cue and hit that cue every single show, 2 shows a night, 5 nights a week. Can you do a hyperloop 100% of the time?
Taking this all the way back to promotion, I also want to point out that there are also other aspects to being a professional performer. Fire spinners are notoriously flakey, while professional performers are reliable. Pros show up on time, are well-rehearsed, prepare and plan for the gig, have performers' insurance, get the appropriate fire permits, and value their relationships with stage managers and event promoters. This is a lot of hard work, and that's part of why the pros get paid a lot more than a group of flakey spinners who just want to get into the party for free (I fall into the latter category). That, by the way, is also a lesson for the promoters out there -- you get what you pay for!
BRONZE Member
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
Yes, but I don't think its their poi that's capturing my attention..
Technical ability IS a prerequisite for dancing with poi well. The dance is a stylistic layer above the
technical layer. The lower layer has to be pretty solid for a good dance performance.
Written by: Orbit
..we've all met the hot sexy women that just do the weave but can capture everyone's attention.
Yes, but I don't think its their poi that's capturing my attention..
Written by: Orbit
-- technical ability is NOT a prerequisite for dancing with poi...
Technical ability IS a prerequisite for dancing with poi well. The dance is a stylistic layer above the
technical layer. The lower layer has to be pretty solid for a good dance performance.
~peace is a fire~
member
59 posts
Location: Eugene, Oregon
59 posts
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posted:
I think that the ego thing depend on why you got into it in the first place. For example I didn't start spinning to perform. I just wanted to do it. I don't like being up on stage (I did it before as a lead screamer for a Punk band), I don't like fame or aclaim, and I really don't like fans. Thats me though.
Lots of the spinners I have met do it for the attention. They like people noticing them. The amazement of people seeeing you play with fire in a controled but potentially dangerous way is what they seek. It becomes almost like rock star egos out there. But this isn't the only scene I have seen this in. I am starting to learn glass blowing and the same thing goes on there too. I think anytime you get highly specialized profesions you will find some big egos. I feel it just makes you apreciate the mellow folks more. I think a lot of those big egos are covering up the fact that they really aren't that confident in their skills. I am not saying they suck, just saying that in the back of their minds they are afraid they might suck. The troope I learned poi from definately had egos. They deserve them though. They are one of the older fire troopes in the US and extemely good. I found that after a while of not treating them like superstars they mellowed out and took comfort from being regular people and having a normal friendship.
So I just grin and bear it when it comes to the egos.
I think that the ego thing depend on why you got into it in the first place. For example I didn't start spinning to perform. I just wanted to do it. I don't like being up on stage (I did it before as a lead screamer for a Punk band), I don't like fame or aclaim, and I really don't like fans. Thats me though.
Lots of the spinners I have met do it for the attention. They like people noticing them. The amazement of people seeeing you play with fire in a controled but potentially dangerous way is what they seek. It becomes almost like rock star egos out there. But this isn't the only scene I have seen this in. I am starting to learn glass blowing and the same thing goes on there too. I think anytime you get highly specialized profesions you will find some big egos. I feel it just makes you apreciate the mellow folks more. I think a lot of those big egos are covering up the fact that they really aren't that confident in their skills. I am not saying they suck, just saying that in the back of their minds they are afraid they might suck. The troope I learned poi from definately had egos. They deserve them though. They are one of the older fire troopes in the US and extemely good. I found that after a while of not treating them like superstars they mellowed out and took comfort from being regular people and having a normal friendship.
So I just grin and bear it when it comes to the egos.
I thought I waz just dreammin'?!!??!!??!! Dis place can't really be real.
BRONZE Member
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
freedom in chains
176 posts
Location: San Francisco & Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
No one deserves an ego
No one deserves an ego
~peace is a fire~
BRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
erm....but surely everybody has an ego....not deserving one would be like saying no-one deserves a sense of self...
Do you mean no-one deserves an overblown / massive ego because without any ego it would be pretty hard to function not believing you could do ANYTHING...
erm....but surely everybody has an ego....not deserving one would be like saying no-one deserves a sense of self...
Do you mean no-one deserves an overblown / massive ego because without any ego it would be pretty hard to function not believing you could do ANYTHING...
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
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