Forums > Social Discussion > flying and enviro-hippies
Login/Join to Participategeek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.
now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.
how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.
I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting
for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at https://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too
i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:
so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.
now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.
how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.
I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting
for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at https://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too
i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
What if it made me happy to kill billions of people? Maybe i'll show some restraint and only kill millions.
I think that there's still a sense of "Ignore the problem and it'll go away". Or "Those clever Scientist chappies will think of something"
We have so far experienced warming of 0.6 degrees. All the glaciers in the world are retreating, the arctic is melting , sea levels are rising 2 mill a year, and coral (which is particularly vulnerable to rising temperatures) is dying fast.
The IPCC (International Panel on Climate Change) estimates a warming of between 1.4 and 5.8 degrees. These estimates are now considered conservative as they do not take account of many positive feedback effects since identified.
Even in the middle of the IPCC estimate it is likely that we will see extinction of 14-37% of all species, London, New York, Mumbai and many costal cities under water, the number of people endangered by salt water floods will increase from 75 million to 200 million, and famine is also predicted (rice yields fall by 15% for every degree of warming).
The WHO estimates that 150,000 people annualy are ALREADY dying due to the increased spread of diseases (particuarly diarrhorea and cholora).
The nobel laureat Paul Crutzen, having taken into account the falling levels of particles produced by heavy industry which reflect sunlight, estimates warming of between 7 and 10 degrees assuming business continues as usual.
At the end of the Permian we had warming of 6-8 degrees and it caused the biggest mass extinction ever seen, the fossil record virtualy stops dead. In all 90% of all species were wiped out. It took 10 million years for coral to reappear.
We could hold climate change down if only we could get our bloody act together.
The USA and Australia are NOT BLOODY HELPING. History will not be kind.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1169592769)
Written by: faithinfire
restraint, but we should do what makes us happy...jk please don't yell
What if it made me happy to kill billions of people? Maybe i'll show some restraint and only kill millions.
I think that there's still a sense of "Ignore the problem and it'll go away". Or "Those clever Scientist chappies will think of something"
We have so far experienced warming of 0.6 degrees. All the glaciers in the world are retreating, the arctic is melting , sea levels are rising 2 mill a year, and coral (which is particularly vulnerable to rising temperatures) is dying fast.
The IPCC (International Panel on Climate Change) estimates a warming of between 1.4 and 5.8 degrees. These estimates are now considered conservative as they do not take account of many positive feedback effects since identified.
Even in the middle of the IPCC estimate it is likely that we will see extinction of 14-37% of all species, London, New York, Mumbai and many costal cities under water, the number of people endangered by salt water floods will increase from 75 million to 200 million, and famine is also predicted (rice yields fall by 15% for every degree of warming).
The WHO estimates that 150,000 people annualy are ALREADY dying due to the increased spread of diseases (particuarly diarrhorea and cholora).
The nobel laureat Paul Crutzen, having taken into account the falling levels of particles produced by heavy industry which reflect sunlight, estimates warming of between 7 and 10 degrees assuming business continues as usual.
At the end of the Permian we had warming of 6-8 degrees and it caused the biggest mass extinction ever seen, the fossil record virtualy stops dead. In all 90% of all species were wiped out. It took 10 million years for coral to reappear.
We could hold climate change down if only we could get our bloody act together.
The USA and Australia are NOT BLOODY HELPING. History will not be kind.
EDITED_BY: Mascot (1169592769)
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
I apologize for yelling, but the whole thing is so frustrating. It's like watching a global tragedy unfold and being powerless to prevent it.
I apologize for yelling, but the whole thing is so frustrating. It's like watching a global tragedy unfold and being powerless to prevent it.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
we are not powerless. we can influence people by our decisions. each individual can make a difference.
we are not powerless. we can influence people by our decisions. each individual can make a difference.
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
I have a lot of admiration for your rare ability to actually do something rather than just talk about it. I find it quite humbling.
I think I'll take the eurostar and trains to the EJC in Greece.
I have a lot of admiration for your rare ability to actually do something rather than just talk about it. I find it quite humbling.
I think I'll take the eurostar and trains to the EJC in Greece.
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
I agree, the danger that the industry faces in the short term are from utterly stupid restrictions caused by scientifically impossible, made up terrorist threats. In the slightly longer term they face the problem of fuel prices fluctuating.
There is what I see as a coming to together of forces that will make oil markets change a bit. One is the re-election of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela who is making the oil industry publicly owned in order to spread the wealth that oil brings to the country out of the rich businesses and in to the hands of the people. This doesn't mean the prices will go up, but the US and the UK have been in a propaganda war against Chavez for ages; if he takes over there will be fluctuation in markets to a greater or lesser extent.
Any other is the old Euro Dollar theory that countries like Iran, Venezuela and Russia (who make up about 25% of the oil export market) will stop trading in US dollars and start trading in euro-dollars. This is bound to have a big impact on oil markets world wide. I know that if I owned an airplane business I'd be worried about that far more than a few hippies who are going on about the environment. I'd have profit margins to see to, damn it! (edit: I'd actually be too busy telling the government how to run the transport system in the UK)
This is all going to happen at more or less the same time as peak oil....
Obviously from an environmental view point traveling further is worse, but from a boycott point of view I'm not sure. I would have thought that profit margins are more or less the same no matter the distance. I don't know. Stopping shorthall flights would be a huge step: making people use alternatives when it is relatively easy to.
I think it would be funny to give someone an ASBO for flying short hall when they can afford alternatives, I think they fit the bill:
I'd say that helping to wipe out life as we know it is 'likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons'
(Note, this isn't trying to have a go at anyone at all: try to see the humor rather than assuming I'm having a go)
Are there stand by passengers waiting to fill planes?
1. Condemning people isn't going to make them change - far from it. We should talk to them to see if they are aware of the massive damage the companies they work for are doing to the earth.
2. The fact is that before too long they will be out of work anyway. We can only keep flying for a few more years before prices get too high, so they are going to have to face up to the problem sooner or later. If I were them I'd want to be a part of some new economic system that wouldn't die out when oil did; what that is I don't know.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
Written by: faithinfire
i really don't think that there are enough people heading in the same direction, who would choose not to fly because of environmental issues, to make a difference in flights
I agree, the danger that the industry faces in the short term are from utterly stupid restrictions caused by scientifically impossible, made up terrorist threats. In the slightly longer term they face the problem of fuel prices fluctuating.
There is what I see as a coming to together of forces that will make oil markets change a bit. One is the re-election of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela who is making the oil industry publicly owned in order to spread the wealth that oil brings to the country out of the rich businesses and in to the hands of the people. This doesn't mean the prices will go up, but the US and the UK have been in a propaganda war against Chavez for ages; if he takes over there will be fluctuation in markets to a greater or lesser extent.
Any other is the old Euro Dollar theory that countries like Iran, Venezuela and Russia (who make up about 25% of the oil export market) will stop trading in US dollars and start trading in euro-dollars. This is bound to have a big impact on oil markets world wide. I know that if I owned an airplane business I'd be worried about that far more than a few hippies who are going on about the environment. I'd have profit margins to see to, damn it! (edit: I'd actually be too busy telling the government how to run the transport system in the UK)
This is all going to happen at more or less the same time as peak oil....
Written by: faithinfire
...now if we all decided not to fly from london to sydney, then yes, but from different locations no...
Obviously from an environmental view point traveling further is worse, but from a boycott point of view I'm not sure. I would have thought that profit margins are more or less the same no matter the distance. I don't know. Stopping shorthall flights would be a huge step: making people use alternatives when it is relatively easy to.
I think it would be funny to give someone an ASBO for flying short hall when they can afford alternatives, I think they fit the bill:
Written by: Crime and Disorder Act 1998
1. - (1) An application for an order under this section may be made by a relevant authority if it appears to the authority that the following conditions are fulfilled with respect to any person aged 10 or over, namely-
(a) that the person has acted, since the commencement date, in an anti-social manner, that is to say, in a manner that caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not of the same household as himself; and
(b) that such an order is necessary to protect persons in the local government area in which the harassment, alarm or distress was caused or was likely to be caused from further anti-social acts by him;
I'd say that helping to wipe out life as we know it is 'likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons'
(Note, this isn't trying to have a go at anyone at all: try to see the humor rather than assuming I'm having a go)Written by: faithinfire
in fact by not flying people who would be on standby get to fly
(by the way, i haven't flown for 7yrs, so don't yell too much)
Are there stand by passengers waiting to fill planes?
Written by: faithinfire
and what about the people who work for airlines
1. should we condemn them because they work for a company that pollutes so much
2. should we put these people out of work because of the environmental belief...many are regular people struggling to make ends meet and an airline job has decent pay...many people around here work for airlines, and most people in milwaukee are below the poverty line anyways, take away jobs that pay and help and how are we helping
1. Condemning people isn't going to make them change - far from it. We should talk to them to see if they are aware of the massive damage the companies they work for are doing to the earth.
2. The fact is that before too long they will be out of work anyway. We can only keep flying for a few more years before prices get too high, so they are going to have to face up to the problem sooner or later. If I were them I'd want to be a part of some new economic system that wouldn't die out when oil did; what that is I don't know.
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
By the way, this makes an interesting read: https://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/39A/41/eddington_execsum11206.pdf
By the way, this makes an interesting read: https://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/39A/41/eddington_execsum11206.pdf
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
what i was saying is that one person in one location flying to another, not flying, is not going to do anything. multiple people not flying from multiple locations to multiple locations is not going to do anything. one person missing on a flight here and there does nothing.
the other example of a bunch of people not flying from london to sydney was just an example and didn't have to do with distance. it was to show maybe the only way flight frequencies would be affected.
no there are not standbys to fill planes, but we are talking a seat or two not whole planes, which is why a few people not flying from different locations is not going to do anything
i seriously doubt that many of these employees are worried about the plight of the environment when they struggle to survive day to day. i know for many people here that is not good enough not to do anything, but for some people it is and you have to accept that. no amount of preaching is going to change their behavior when they have issues finding a job, find one at the airport, and now can buy food and pay rent
what i was saying is that one person in one location flying to another, not flying, is not going to do anything. multiple people not flying from multiple locations to multiple locations is not going to do anything. one person missing on a flight here and there does nothing.
the other example of a bunch of people not flying from london to sydney was just an example and didn't have to do with distance. it was to show maybe the only way flight frequencies would be affected.
no there are not standbys to fill planes, but we are talking a seat or two not whole planes, which is why a few people not flying from different locations is not going to do anything
i seriously doubt that many of these employees are worried about the plight of the environment when they struggle to survive day to day. i know for many people here that is not good enough not to do anything, but for some people it is and you have to accept that. no amount of preaching is going to change their behavior when they have issues finding a job, find one at the airport, and now can buy food and pay rent
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
enthusiast
301 posts
301 posts
Posted:
A few people not flying not do much but it will do something which is better than nothing. Maybe some other people might start to notice and also refuse to fly as well. Everything has to start somewhere, or else how would social change ever happen?
So the poor employee is faced with the dire prospect of choosing between principles and cash. He chooses cash as does almost everyone in that position, and who can blame him?
What about the future starving millions and dying species? They didn't even get a choice.
We're not saying all airport employees should put down their tools and refuse to work we're saying that Governments should take action. I would like to see a total phase-out of air-travel in perhaps 30 years.
If it's all about jobs then you can find them in the growing clean energy business, in re-engineering the transport system, in local farming, in installing insulation, in carbon sequestration.
The economy changes and usually makes most people better off. the trouble is the losers shout loudly and the winners either don't notice or don't exist yet. So we oppose necessary change. If we were trying to change to a more intensively oil based economy you'd be saying "What about the poor coach drivers? they're not going to have jobs any more....and what about all the farm laborers going to be replaced by big machines?
A few people not flying not do much but it will do something which is better than nothing. Maybe some other people might start to notice and also refuse to fly as well. Everything has to start somewhere, or else how would social change ever happen?
So the poor employee is faced with the dire prospect of choosing between principles and cash. He chooses cash as does almost everyone in that position, and who can blame him?
What about the future starving millions and dying species? They didn't even get a choice.
We're not saying all airport employees should put down their tools and refuse to work we're saying that Governments should take action. I would like to see a total phase-out of air-travel in perhaps 30 years.
If it's all about jobs then you can find them in the growing clean energy business, in re-engineering the transport system, in local farming, in installing insulation, in carbon sequestration.
The economy changes and usually makes most people better off. the trouble is the losers shout loudly and the winners either don't notice or don't exist yet. So we oppose necessary change. If we were trying to change to a more intensively oil based economy you'd be saying "What about the poor coach drivers? they're not going to have jobs any more....and what about all the farm laborers going to be replaced by big machines?
Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
coach drivers are doing alright, wait what are coach drivers over there, we have them as bus drivers
coach drivers are doing alright, wait what are coach drivers over there, we have them as bus drivers
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Sitting down facing forward . . .
2,387 posts
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted:
I note many of you are feeling powerless and frustrated ... a thought - it is because of conversations like this that are happening all around the world that force companies (large and small) to consider their responsibilities and put environmental concerns into policies and action plans into place for their business. These may start small but they grow and they rub off on other businesses as they see customers who respond and switch their business. The number of businesses making environmental improvements therefore increases in a non-linear rate. And big businesses have more to lose/gain by making/not making such changes so when they recognise the wind of change they work out they have to do something before the other big company (or all the little ones) steal their business away from them. And believe it or not, sometimes these changes actually save money rather than being a pure cost.
There's a big focus on flying currently because planes take the pollution right up to the place where the root cause of global warming occurs (the atmosphere). Also of course the shear volume of fuel burning in a 747 per minute, and when it takes 10-12 hrs to get anywhere that's a lot of effect! But it's not just the flying where change needs to occur and there are businesses doing quite a lot to help. It's everyone's job to spread the word and increase the awareness to make sure the change happens at a faster than linear rate.
The climate change has taken a long time to get this point and it will not be fixed overnight. Be patient, but do your part to spread the word. The "little fella" can make an impact on the giant.
I'm reasonably well travelled (which means lots of planes since I'm way down the bottom of the world), and I wouldn't change any of that as it has made me who I am, BUT, I would potentially change the way I did it if there was an alternative. I mean I flew into the highly eco-fragile pristine wilderness of Antarctica with everyone conscious of the effect such flying has, but we went anyway because the missions were seen to provide greater benefit than the damage caused. I would fly tomorrow on the same understanding. And even more so if alternative fuels/methods were available. But I don't fly when other methods (phone, e-mail etc) will achieve the end result. It's all about weighing the options and making a choice. Some people's choices are just more informed than others - and this is where we can all help educate others so the choice is better informed.
Hmmmm, was supposed to be "a thought" and it's a bit of a ramble - sorry!
George
I note many of you are feeling powerless and frustrated ... a thought - it is because of conversations like this that are happening all around the world that force companies (large and small) to consider their responsibilities and put environmental concerns into policies and action plans into place for their business. These may start small but they grow and they rub off on other businesses as they see customers who respond and switch their business. The number of businesses making environmental improvements therefore increases in a non-linear rate. And big businesses have more to lose/gain by making/not making such changes so when they recognise the wind of change they work out they have to do something before the other big company (or all the little ones) steal their business away from them. And believe it or not, sometimes these changes actually save money rather than being a pure cost.
There's a big focus on flying currently because planes take the pollution right up to the place where the root cause of global warming occurs (the atmosphere). Also of course the shear volume of fuel burning in a 747 per minute, and when it takes 10-12 hrs to get anywhere that's a lot of effect! But it's not just the flying where change needs to occur and there are businesses doing quite a lot to help. It's everyone's job to spread the word and increase the awareness to make sure the change happens at a faster than linear rate.
The climate change has taken a long time to get this point and it will not be fixed overnight. Be patient, but do your part to spread the word. The "little fella" can make an impact on the giant.
I'm reasonably well travelled (which means lots of planes since I'm way down the bottom of the world), and I wouldn't change any of that as it has made me who I am, BUT, I would potentially change the way I did it if there was an alternative. I mean I flew into the highly eco-fragile pristine wilderness of Antarctica with everyone conscious of the effect such flying has, but we went anyway because the missions were seen to provide greater benefit than the damage caused. I would fly tomorrow on the same understanding. And even more so if alternative fuels/methods were available. But I don't fly when other methods (phone, e-mail etc) will achieve the end result. It's all about weighing the options and making a choice. Some people's choices are just more informed than others - and this is where we can all help educate others so the choice is better informed.
Hmmmm, was supposed to be "a thought" and it's a bit of a ramble - sorry!
George
Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread
I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it. 
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
So. some big news on planet rob...
but first of all:
https://environment.guardian.co.uk/ethicalliving/story/0,,1997277,00.html
its a carbon footprint test printed in the guardian today. I come in at about 3,300: the same as your average chinese person, about a third of your average briton, and about 3 times a long term sustainable level.
go try it, and see what you can do to reduce it if you're surprised at how high it is.
BUT!!!
from next year i will be reducing my levels considerably.
My dad and I are going to build an eco-arts centre, near inverness in scotland. remember that picture i showed a few pages back? well, he saw it, and was thinking about moving to somewhere with a field anyway, and wanted to build a rehearsal space, andnand... to cut a long story short, we're going to do it! it will be low-impact, powered by renewable energy, have a large organic garden (my dad is an awesome gardener), and filled with arts and life.
https://www.simondale.net/house/index.htm
is the house that inspired this.
so excited i am finding it difficult to work!!!
So. some big news on planet rob...
but first of all:
https://environment.guardian.co.uk/ethicalliving/story/0,,1997277,00.html
its a carbon footprint test printed in the guardian today. I come in at about 3,300: the same as your average chinese person, about a third of your average briton, and about 3 times a long term sustainable level.
go try it, and see what you can do to reduce it if you're surprised at how high it is.
BUT!!!
from next year i will be reducing my levels considerably.
My dad and I are going to build an eco-arts centre, near inverness in scotland. remember that picture i showed a few pages back? well, he saw it, and was thinking about moving to somewhere with a field anyway, and wanted to build a rehearsal space, andnand... to cut a long story short, we're going to do it! it will be low-impact, powered by renewable energy, have a large organic garden (my dad is an awesome gardener), and filled with arts and life.
https://www.simondale.net/house/index.htm
is the house that inspired this.
so excited i am finding it difficult to work!!!
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
Can I come and live with you Rob?
That's great news!
Can I come and live with you Rob?
That's great news!
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
lets talk
lets talk
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
SILVER Member
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Momma Bear
4,525 posts
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdom
Posted:
ooh it's like a hobbit's house!I love it!
ooh it's like a hobbit's house!I love it!
Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.
BRONZE Member
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Geek-enviro-hippy priest
1,858 posts
Location: Diss, Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posted:
For those who can get BBC 2:
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/flying/
For those who can get BBC 2:
Written by: BBC2
Is our love affair with the plane going to cost us the earth? Should I Really Give Up Flying? - Wednesday 24th January, BBC Two, 21:00 GMT
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/flying/
There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
hmm this prob isnt quite on thread but the british government (those lovly people *cough*) are now trying to build housing estates over underground fuel dumps and runways lol
i must admit i fly alot and im not goin to change that cos i like doing it! then again i dont sit in the back and take the ride half the time, cos i sit in the front and move the bugger
oh and btw fyi all that about aeroplanes damaging the stratosphere is only speculation there is no hard facts at all. a report came out the day before saying how much better flying was to driving especially within a country such as exeter to edinburough because it is more fuel economic and getting better by another 50% before 2020
hmm this prob isnt quite on thread but the british government (those lovly people *cough*) are now trying to build housing estates over underground fuel dumps and runways lol
i must admit i fly alot and im not goin to change that cos i like doing it! then again i dont sit in the back and take the ride half the time, cos i sit in the front and move the bugger
oh and btw fyi all that about aeroplanes damaging the stratosphere is only speculation there is no hard facts at all. a report came out the day before saying how much better flying was to driving especially within a country such as exeter to edinburough because it is more fuel economic and getting better by another 50% before 2020
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
can you give us a source for that info?
can you give us a source for that info?
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
sorry have lost it atm
but am searching
sorry have lost it atm
but am searching
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
thanks
thanks
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
I see your points Blue, but I also think that without a global perspective many people wouldnt be able to rouse themselves to actually care about things that are happening on a global scale.
Alternative methods of travel are great for you people that live in little countries with lots of cool local stuff - but in Australia...well to travel surface to any place thats got a significantly different culture is quite time consuming (plus Id need an ocean going sailing boat = $$$$) and taking that amount of time off would probly stuff up any chance of maintaining a job and without money I'd be hard pressed to stay alive let alone make a difference.
I got the book The Corporation for Christmas, and it outlines in no uncertain terms how todays corps will not ever sacrifice profit for social or environmental good, and that all these green-pledges are really just investments with projected returns.
honestly, if you are looking at people to point the finger at, look at the big corps that fly their people all over the world weekly, who have factorys that pump huge volumes of polutants into the atmosphere, that produce crap products that fall apart and need constant replacement etc etc etc.
also as for political methods - well...I'm completely Jaded as far as lobbying goes. Corps have the govts in their pockets to such an extent than I dont actually believe any amount of lobbying or campaigning will make a difference on any issue that actually counts. Blood needs to be spilled ala revolution for any major change to come about - and we all know that people in the west have grown too fat and lazy to sacrifice their lifestyle in any sense let alone risk being beaten, arrested or shot (like in Sth America, China, etc). Things will have to get really bad before they can start getting better.
The good news is that after we knock the human race back into the caves, the world can start to recover again
I see your points Blue, but I also think that without a global perspective many people wouldnt be able to rouse themselves to actually care about things that are happening on a global scale.
Alternative methods of travel are great for you people that live in little countries with lots of cool local stuff - but in Australia...well to travel surface to any place thats got a significantly different culture is quite time consuming (plus Id need an ocean going sailing boat = $$$$) and taking that amount of time off would probly stuff up any chance of maintaining a job and without money I'd be hard pressed to stay alive let alone make a difference.
I got the book The Corporation for Christmas, and it outlines in no uncertain terms how todays corps will not ever sacrifice profit for social or environmental good, and that all these green-pledges are really just investments with projected returns.
honestly, if you are looking at people to point the finger at, look at the big corps that fly their people all over the world weekly, who have factorys that pump huge volumes of polutants into the atmosphere, that produce crap products that fall apart and need constant replacement etc etc etc.
also as for political methods - well...I'm completely Jaded as far as lobbying goes. Corps have the govts in their pockets to such an extent than I dont actually believe any amount of lobbying or campaigning will make a difference on any issue that actually counts. Blood needs to be spilled ala revolution for any major change to come about - and we all know that people in the west have grown too fat and lazy to sacrifice their lifestyle in any sense let alone risk being beaten, arrested or shot (like in Sth America, China, etc). Things will have to get really bad before they can start getting better.
The good news is that after we knock the human race back into the caves, the world can start to recover again
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Domestic travels can be sped up by factor x, using high speed trains - which Australia ceases to develop or implement...
Taking the train in Australia is ridiculous, compared to taking the car or plane... 
In Germany (as a matter of fact) it's more convenient to use the train for going from Munich to Berlin/ Frankfurt/ Hamburg, than taking a car.
High speed trains and airships, putting cargo exclusively on trains and alternatively fuelled freight ships would greatly reduce environmental problems...
And how about HoP shipping airfreight?
Yet: Would you - as their customer - wait 3 weeks... wait... errm 3 MONTHS for your firestuff?
Anybody checked already the passenger vs. goods ratio in (international) aviation?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1169643693)
Domestic travels can be sped up by factor x, using high speed trains - which Australia ceases to develop or implement...
Taking the train in Australia is ridiculous, compared to taking the car or plane... In Germany (as a matter of fact) it's more convenient to use the train for going from Munich to Berlin/ Frankfurt/ Hamburg, than taking a car.
High speed trains and airships, putting cargo exclusively on trains and alternatively fuelled freight ships would greatly reduce environmental problems...
And how about HoP shipping airfreight?
Yet: Would you - as their customer - wait 3 weeks... wait... errm 3 MONTHS for your firestuff?
Anybody checked already the passenger vs. goods ratio in (international) aviation?
EDITED_BY: FireTom (1169643693)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
just some generally intereting aviation based sites
www.greenerbydesign.org.uk
www.sustainableaviation.co.uk
EDITED_BY: flying_on_fire (1169643551)
just some generally intereting aviation based sites
www.greenerbydesign.org.uk
www.sustainableaviation.co.uk
EDITED_BY: flying_on_fire (1169643551)
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
i think you're totally missing my point, josh
i'm not pointing the finger at anyone. i'm trying to raise awareness so that people can make their own choices about their own lifestyles.
i'm fully aware that the majority of pollution comes from industry. but industry would not have its markets if WE chose to do things differently. and if we do so, and they do so, our govenments will eventually respond (in some way ) and have some influence over developing governments.
so what if their 'green' policies are market driven. as long as we've still got a world to complain about, then i'm much happier if they choose to be more green.
i hope i get to see you again some day, and talk about this face to face. but i doubt it will happen
i think you're totally missing my point, josh
i'm not pointing the finger at anyone. i'm trying to raise awareness so that people can make their own choices about their own lifestyles.
i'm fully aware that the majority of pollution comes from industry. but industry would not have its markets if WE chose to do things differently. and if we do so, and they do so, our govenments will eventually respond (in some way
) and have some influence over developing governments.so what if their 'green' policies are market driven. as long as we've still got a world to complain about, then i'm much happier if they choose to be more green.
i hope i get to see you again some day, and talk about this face to face. but i doubt it will happen
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
if you are interested on effects of contails (the white trails from aircraft)
https://www.cate.mmu.ac.uk/documents/brochures/christine.pdf
if you are interested on effects of contails (the white trails from aircraft)
https://www.cate.mmu.ac.uk/documents/brochures/christine.pdf
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
those'r positive links, FiF.
but it takes more than an intention when many airlines fly older aircraft, traveller numbers are increasing, and it will take years before their recommendations/plans take effect. years which IMO we don't have.
those'r positive links, FiF.
but it takes more than an intention when many airlines fly older aircraft, traveller numbers are increasing, and it will take years before their recommendations/plans take effect. years which IMO we don't have.
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
tom just as a small point but ships are more polluting than planes because they have a greater drag against them
trains would be gd tho
tom just as a small point but ships are more polluting than planes because they have a greater drag against them
trains would be gd tho
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
even the older aircraft are very fuel economic and the airliner are all updating to avoid tax suppliments on the older planes
even the older aircraft are very fuel economic and the airliner are all updating to avoid tax suppliments on the older planes
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
thats just plain not true. i can dig out figures from earlier in the thread if you like....
Written by: flying_on_fire
even the older aircraft are very fuel economic
thats just plain not true. i can dig out figures from earlier in the thread if you like....
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
plz do il get some from aviation website see if they concur
=)
plz do il get some from aviation website see if they concur
=)
BRONZE Member
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
member
29 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
just wondering blue do u drive?
just wondering blue do u drive?
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