Forums > Social Chat > flash?

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 30th Jan 2001
ive been to flash sites be4, they are better, but take nore time to load dont they?whjen making sites i was told not to make them big cause people give up and cant be botherd waiting, but sometimes straight out simple is better,. so either was has is pro's and con's ever though about making one site, linking to a flash, and one to a non flash site?

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 30th Jan 2001
Hey,Flash is great, if you are going to do lots of animation with Vector graphics, however, if most of what you want to show is photoes / videos and regularly updated content, then plain old D/HTML is better. HTML is easier to update and doesnt require a plugin to view.IF you do your slicing right, HTML can look really really good...most of the time flash is used cuz it's fashionable, not because its better than anything else. A lot of ppl use flash for intro movies, but after the first time you see an intro, most of the time you just want to skip it anyhow...and then Flash is useless. Content is what brings ppl back, content is what keeps them there. HTML loads and renders faster, and can be bookmarked (as long as you avoid Frames) and can be printed more easily than Flash.I'm not sure I've ever seen a flash site that NEEDED to be done in flash...and I've seen MANY sites. (aside from art sites - but do they really count?).Think about what your site is for. Think about who it's for then think about what technology you need to get the job done to achieve those aims. Dont tailor your site to suit the particular technology you want to use...you will be missing the point, and it will show in the end. this site (home of Poi) is a great example. Sure - it could look nicer, but it's content rules, and thats why it is popular.Given that - with flash 5 and a proper emulation of a DOM in the form of Actionscript dot syntax, complex interactions are now relatively easy to code. So again, it really depends on what you have in mind. If you want to post the aims and stuff of your new site, I'd be happy to give you my opinion on what technologies are the most appropriate to use...heh, just re-read your post, realised you have already started the new flash version..Ok - Flash makes no difference to me. However the freshness of the content does. Flash is harder to update than HTML, and so most of the time, web sites done in flash are more eyecandy and less content. The performance of Flash depends greatly on how well its been prepared. A poorly put together Flash site will take forever to download and will look and feel crap (and plenty of 'professional' WebDevs creat bad flash).All I can say is, make sure that it will run nice on a Pentium 200, and you should be ok. (most Macs and windows boxes are quicker than that these days).Although - if you want to be really responsible as a developer, you should make sure it will run on version 3 of the flash plugin, in an old browser on win 95 on a slow pentium. Then you can be sure that your site will run beautifully on a quick machine.Make sure the user doesn't have to wait longer than 5 seconds before seeing anything (by properly ordering the layers and configuring the streaming) or else you will lose users.All this stuff is basic usability, and if you actually read up on usability, you will probly find that Flash doesnt really foot the bill in this area (the most important one IMHO). However, it can look very pretty. I dont mind - I've got a very fast connection and a very powerful computer...people on 56k modems running win 2k on a p2 200 might not agree tho ;)[Josh][Mild mannered Web Developer by day,Crazed Twirler by night][This message has been edited by [Josh] (edited 31 January 2001).]

Posted: 30th Jan 2001
I would agree with Josh, I am one of those people that has a lot of time on my hands at work and visit quite a many sites I also do some amateur webdesign for my work and also for a few other people. I have found that as josh said to be very fashionable and rather useless in the whole scheme of the webpage.Dhtml can do wonders if you want to make thigns a little more flashy, without increasing the download time by minutes! A lot of people still dont use flash enable browsers and then a lot of people i know use text browsers like lynx...just my 2cents!

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
Flavio,I dig Flash, but not too much of it. If you want to give me an intro, make it really short, like a few seconds and then get me to the page. On a page, I like Flash that really means something. I think it's cool to put your site in both Flash and static, that way everyone gets to choose what they like. DianaPS: Josh is right about testing it on a slacker machine. I just upgraded my machine and there's a vast difference.

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
Diana you took it out of my mouth ( haha - just realized that this is a direct translation from Greek - i meant i was about to say the same thing ) - if you wanna have flash i think it's a pretty good idea to keep the non-flash version as well (i am sure you will ); i have a very fast connection and still i am occasionally frustrated when badly made flash site takes ages to load; the other thing you might want to consider is why you are actually putting together the web-site; i'll explain what i mean...if you are putting the web-site together so that your fire group has a web-presence - say you perform somewhere and want to have a URL to give out to interested people that want to hire you for a performance, or just have a URL on the posters you are making so that people can have a look and find out what you are doing, then flash is good; it's gonna add to the presentation of the side, create an impact if it's properly done and the visitor will have a more professional image of your fire-group (it's amazing that things like that matter but let's face it, they do!) - so in the above case you are looking at visitors who will probably visit your web-site once or twice...i think that's where flash is efficient...on the other hand any website aiming at attracting visitors on a daily basis and is information-based will be annoying if there are flash animations all over the place; people go for simplicity, speed and functionality rather than flashy animations which provide no information to the visitor...a lot of us even 'revolted' when malcolm changed the old BB, just because people like it simple - although a mistaken reaction since this BB is a lot better, imagine what would happen if Malcolm had added flash animations too, which would have even prevented some people from viewing the site properly (i am waffling on now giving bad analogies, i am sure you can see my point ),well it's only fair that i add that i am no web-design expert myself...in any case if you have both versions you can more easily 'serve' both types of visitors if you wanted to (after the first couple of times i am sure regualar visitors would hit that non-flash button everytime! - i even find that a hassle sometimes ),happy swinging,Simos[This message has been edited by Simos (edited 01 February 2001).]

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
Flash is fine with me, but I've got a fast connection and pretty fast machine. As others have said, it is often just eye-candy, which can be fun as a detour, but not such a great idea if that's all you've got. I've never done any composing (is that the right word?) in Flash, but I've seen plenty of Flash sites. Some of them do seem to get good use out of it--it's pretty cool when you can basically pre-load the entire website as a single Flash file, so all subsequent navigation is immediate. And Flash seems (I emphasize "seems") immune from a lot of the bugginess that I encounter with Javascript and the slowness that I encounter with Java.So what's the URL so we can go check it out?------------------Adam Rice :: www.fire-gear.com

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
Ðear Miss Flavio,On a designer level, I don't really like flash ... admittedly i probably didn't give it as much of a chance as it deserved, but i just didn't like using it and i was much happier when i openned up my notepad and went back to raw coding. Maybe that's just me though ... i also hate things like frontpage and dreamweaver ...On a web browser level, i don't really like flash either. It makes me feel kind of out of control of my browser ... more like i'm watching a movie than being interactive which is what the internet is all about. I also like to open things in different windows when i want, and i love being able to look at other peoples html ... it's a sick little fetish i have ...Then on the other hand, I'd hate to say all of this and miss the opportunity to see what sort of a site you could churn out with flash ...The only thing i think you can do when you use flash is to have an alternative non-flash version of the site ... but then i often find that non-flash versions of site often look pretty close to their flash counterparts ... so what's the point in making a flash site at all ... i don't know ... they sure do look pretty though ... sometimes ... where did i put my cup of tea?Ðraevon.{aside} Let me know when i can look at something ... like what everyone else said {/aside}

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
We are in the process of major webpage re-vamp ourselves, and the designer we were working with wanted to do LOTS of Flash. The demo page sure looked pretty, but would have been very frustrating for someone on a slower connection, or someone using a text-based browser.So we decided to go with a much simpler non-flash page for now.Oh, hope you don't mind, flavio - the webpage for Thermogenesis is www.thermogenesis.netIt looks to be still non-flash...The other issue that came up was our sort of blue-collar, 'eat the rich' mentality - is it appropriate for a troupe that prides itself on being made up of 'starving artists' to have a website that's best viewed on a T-1 connection? uh, no. we are moving more in the direction of 'user-friendly' web design.~*Charly*~------------------www.cabiri.org

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
oh yeah, and to add a little,-Search engines cant index flash files...-anyone using a browser not of the normal type (eg PDA) will not see anything...The list of reasons not to use flash is huge, the list of reasons to use it is relatively small.However, I think it was Simos who made the interesting distinction between Business Card websites and information based websites. sure - if all you want to do is provide an online animated business card, go for the Flash...although its a pity about the printing and bookmarking thing...and its a pity about the plugin thing, and its a pity about the hardware dependence...etc I do like flash BTW - I use it for artistic experimentation (not that I've been doing a lot of that on the web lately, but heh... Peace,------------------[Josh][Sound beams producing arcs of light]

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 31st Jan 2001
well kiddies... here's what i've gathered from your responses.flash is fine- as long as their is a static website for people with slower connections... which is pretty much our mentality on the whole thing. i personally love flash. i like it for the reason that draevon doesn't like it. it is totally like watching television as opposed to interactivity.... like in starship troopers, the little newscast ads... "want to learn more".... hee... totally a flash deal. anyway...thank you everyone for your responses, it was really interesting.. i had been under an impression that everyone loved flash, and to read that not everyone thinks it's the bomb is a really important thing to take into consideration.....so anyway- i will leave you guys with a link to a flash site that i really like, but could probably be done as josh said in dhtml.... eenyway....thanks again!https://www.fireflys.net-flavio

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
Flavio,The Fireflys site is my favourite site on the net!I saw them perform at the Earthdance festival near Sydney in October last year. There act was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. Aaargh! Something to aspire to eh!Finn

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 1st Feb 2001
hehe!I saw em last w/end! at Rainbow Serpent Festival (Victoria). Their performance was very slick - Twirling skills were pretty good, but the performance itself was outstanding!Their site is nice, but I dont see any flash?some Dreamweaver javascript is in effect tho...all in all - a professional performance, put on by professional performers.------------------[Josh][Sound beams producing arcs of light]

Posted: 12th Feb 2001
yeah its got me stumped as to where the flash is on that fireflies site....

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -

Posted: 13th Feb 2001
Hi there,The cat's out of the bag, I am the designer of the FireFlys site and there is no flash on it at all. The thought of putting flash on there makes me puke.There is nothing that flash offers that makes it worth the headache of extra coding and high maintainence.The fireflys site is a messy kind of implementation of dynamic HTML built out of dreamweaver. An update is coming soon built entirely in ASP in homesite (still using dreamweaver java).Thanks for the nice comments about the site, I'll let the girls know about your thoughts on them too.Regards, Sam.sam@fireflys.net

AnonymousPLATINUM Member

Posted: 13th Feb 2001
yeah, i'm a BIG dork. i don't know why.. (_really) i thought there was flash on it. chalk it up to the brain anurism.

Posted: 13th Feb 2001
I thought for a few moments there that i had grossly underestimated flash!! but it appears not, that site looks excellent,and is very functional.

- Industrial design knows of no article more useful than the milk crate -