Forums > Social Chat > USA fire perfomrers beware

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
well, one solution to this and many other problems... a bunch of folks have been hashing it out, trying to get fire performer guilds set up. there are a few, do a search if you are interested in helping them...
personally i think that there needs to be more a lot more respect for fire safety in our community anyways, and this just enforces that upon us. imagine if it had been a fire dancer...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
WWFPU

World Wide Fire Preformers Union... hrm could be an idea?!?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
a lot of this subject was discussed a while back certainly or uk based performers, to get guilds or unions wether world wide or nationally would be a good idea.
if it would ever happen is another story.

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
if you want a union that will represent you, your interests and is well respected by the entertainment community at large (club owners included), look no further than equity.

it covers *all* performers (not just actors and musicians) and not only are they well respected and well known but will help you in contract discussions such as the one rozi raised above (as to whose responsibility it is for the club to have a fire licence).

i know at least one person (a stiltwalker and firespinner) who is a member and is more than happy to be. are any of the performers around here members?

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
yep i am... and it only costs 10 quid a year... any performer should be a member

There is no right and wrong... only fun and boring

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
The backlash from this is huge.

Sorry to see so many performers affected. At least the weather should be warming up so we can play outside soon.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
arashi
I could not agree with you more I have joined several guilds since getting into fire and have yet to see one of them do anything more than sign people up. I belive we are both memebers on the southern fyre guild I have not heard a word or gotten an email from them since I agreed to start a chapter here in tampa .I have also contacted ther NFAA offering any help that was needed and nothing back from them either.
We do need to be heard as one big voice insted of a bunch of little voices.Maybe Malcom will chime in on this one A guild through HOP this is the largest gathering of fire people i have even seen .just a though

I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all

Posted: 25th Feb 2003
This sounds good and all, but even joining a guild/ union wouldn't stop the pointing of fingers if something did happen (God forbid), then most of the fingers would be pointed towards the guild. There is alot of Blam apon the Club, the band and everyone involved in RI. I don't like to say it but I think I'll stick to outdoor shows for a while, or till this all settles and is forgotten.

I do agree that we all need to Step Up on the Safty Aspect!!
Outdoor shows are just as dangerous!
Dry Grass will go up an a flash.
I remember Well After a show at a festival, I was walking away, and there where some folks smoking where we 'where' doucing/spinn off our poi.
(They where Not there when we where spinning)
Well any way, they had lit their cig with a match and tossed it down in the grass. I turned as they did it, and saw just a fire dropplet hit the ground and ignight a 5 foot diamiter circle, with these kids in the center. We where about 50 or so feet away, but it was still huge!! They where not hurt, and stomped it out, but it could have been really bad.

Pick your doucing spot well! We where doucing away from everyone and didn't think about factors after we left! The spinn off fuel and drip bucket residue will spread over the ground and ignight if in contact with a flam.
Note: we where using mostly Lamp oil, with some white gass mixed in.

So Safty involves not only the moments leading up to the dance, the igniting of the dance, and the spinn out. But also well after too. You never know what factors will ocure after wards.

Learn from my experiance,

~Fire Spirit

FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

Posted: 26th Feb 2003
Riz, they were using scare tactics.
They can not arrest you on anything. They can only fine the club, and occassionally the performer only if the fire usage exceeds the legal indoor open fire guidelines, which we usually do not, and these are only after people are asked to desist in their actions and do not.
Fire breathing is different however.

The important thing to remember is that we do not do pyrotechnics, in fact, we are not close to that caliber of heat, height or power, and the fire marshall's know this.
If you have a contract with the venue that states they are to obtain proper permits or they accept the legal ramifications if they do not, you are in the clear, and it will hold up in court. I took contract law (as one of many law classes), I know this one for certain.

I performed a show Saturday night to success. I did not fire breathe. I did not spin poi once it got too busy. The club around the corner had a bartender who very dangerously fire breathed. He left little flaming bits of alcohol on the bar as the fire marshall was walking in. They fined the club and shut it down. The bartender did not suffer any legal issues.

Scare tactics are one of the ways the officials will screw with you to get what they believe is safe. It is our job to prove otherwise through our words and actions, which not only includes safety protocal and performance skills but also a very business minded approach. If you are going to be a serious performer there is so much more to it than safety and stage presence.

I am sorry your tour got cancelled.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Posted: 27th Feb 2003
Pele
Scare tactics maybe.Bottom line for us is we dont perform without a permit.we had 3 permits pulled from all over the country.I am glad to say
after talking with the Houston fire marshell at great length he gave us back our permit.
I do have a question about your post You said "the fire usage exceeds the legal indoor open fire guidelines" I have not be able to find any such guideline in the NFPA 160 manual. In New York what is the guideline ? If you have any written documentation I would love a copy of it.
All of the fire marshells I have spoken with consider poi a open flame device.
This was sent to me by a fire marshell taken from NFPA life safety code::; section 32-2.3
Open flame devices.. No open flame devices nor pyrotechinc shall be used in any assembly occupancy:::

exception #2 Open flame or pyrotechinc devices may be used on stages and platforms when a necesary part of a performace. provided adequate precautions satisfactory to the authority having jurisdiction are taken to prevent ignition of any of any combustiable materials..

I agree it is our Job to prove what we do can be done in a safe professional manner.I feel part of being professional is obeying the laws .

I dont dout your knowlage of contract law and in Nyc what you claim might very well be the case.
I have a retained lawyer who in fact is a contract
lawyer.He wrote my wavier for me when the club owner take responsibility for pulling permits.
After he read what the fire marshell sent me (which I posted above)he would not guarantee that his wavier would keep us from being arrested if the club owner didnt pull the permit and the fire marshell came in, Going back to being professional He said more than likey the fire marshell would expect us to have made sure the owner had the permit and if he didnt ,not to do our show.even more so with all that has happened Adding the fire marshell has the right to take anyone to jail if he needs to detain them for his investigation .With my luck I will get the fire marshell whos daughter I flogged at our last show ::::::laughs::::::: .I dont dout a bit these people are using every tool they have to not be the next rhode island for it is thier job.Just as it is our job to use every tool we have to do this safe and legal.
With the fire gods smiling upon us we should be up and back on the road next month.
If any groups in Houston get toghter and burn on sunday nights we will be in town On march 16th
If we have any engery left we would love to get toghter.

I have been cursed with the imagination to envision it all

Posted: 27th Feb 2003
well riz, interesting... were you on the southern fyreworkers guild mailing list e mail forum? did you get any of my posts on the guild about trying to re boost it? no one but pele and another replied... now i wonder if anybody else even got it.
anyway it's pretty much dead and as far as i know, so too is the "getting our own policy written up by a carrier" issue. i feel like if somebody was good at organizing and that stuff and did it as a business venture and actually got paid it would work. man, it seems so simple to write a safety policy that every fire marshall could agree on, but what do i know? i'd pay somebody to do it, wouldn't you? or, basically, if everybody just did what i told them to do, without question, things would work just fine. and i wouldn't have to get out the cuffs.
i get these posts from a NAFAA guild, but i think that it is for the northeast so i never looked that far into it. maybe i should. it's been going for a while, it seems like they ought to have a lot going. i'll check it out, i think they have an web forum...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.