- Sale items. Buy now - stock going fast. Specials
- You must now select Courier Delivery if you wish to receive items before Christmas.
Forums > Social Discussion > Too nice for our own good? Video critique...
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
I was talking to a fellow CJ'er after I put up my work-in-progress up for critique.
We were saying it's very odd that on most sites, regardless of what it's about, when people submit their material (videos, photos, pictures, poems - whatever) people will happily critique away, being quite harsh in places.
Here, I can't recall many times when people give constructive criticism on videos...
It's usually all very postive, which is important, but in terms of helping people progress, wouldn't it be good if these for often followed by "but" ?
On the other sites I've seen (www.reflective.net springs to mind) no-one's ever been offended by constructive criticism, more often than not they come back a month later with a hugely improved video. As long as it's all done properly i.e. not "You're [censored], there wasn't a single hyperloop in there and your planes are rubbish" - I think people on here are big enough to take the odd "it's a bit scrappy at 1m 13s" or whatever.
Or does poi not merit criticism as it's beautiful to watch no matter how shoddily?
(NB. I don't have any video in mind at all here - it was just a general observation)
Ryan pulled apart my CJ video on cj.org - but that's exactly why I put it up. I have huge respect for Ryan as a CJ'er so I know, he knows what he's talking about (it's also something we've both been working on) - so perhaps this taints my view somewhat, if someone else had written what he had, I'd be less receptive, but I don't think so
Thoughts?
I was talking to a fellow CJ'er after I put up my work-in-progress up for critique.
We were saying it's very odd that on most sites, regardless of what it's about, when people submit their material (videos, photos, pictures, poems - whatever) people will happily critique away, being quite harsh in places.
Here, I can't recall many times when people give constructive criticism on videos...
It's usually all very postive, which is important, but in terms of helping people progress, wouldn't it be good if these for often followed by "but" ?
On the other sites I've seen (www.reflective.net springs to mind) no-one's ever been offended by constructive criticism, more often than not they come back a month later with a hugely improved video. As long as it's all done properly i.e. not "You're [censored], there wasn't a single hyperloop in there and your planes are rubbish" - I think people on here are big enough to take the odd "it's a bit scrappy at 1m 13s" or whatever.
Or does poi not merit criticism as it's beautiful to watch no matter how shoddily?
(NB. I don't have any video in mind at all here - it was just a general observation)
Ryan pulled apart my CJ video on cj.org - but that's exactly why I put it up. I have huge respect for Ryan as a CJ'er so I know, he knows what he's talking about (it's also something we've both been working on) - so perhaps this taints my view somewhat, if someone else had written what he had, I'd be less receptive, but I don't think so
Thoughts?
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
GOLD Member
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Now with extra strawberries
810 posts
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posted:
This is very interesting that you have brought this up just now.
We have just been discussing this same topic in depth on a hooping forum that I spend a lot of time on.
Here are a few links to some of the threads because I feel that there is some discussion in there that is really great and would probably apply here too.
Beware some of this is actually in relation to an incident on the forum so it could be convoluted but there is also good discussion in there.
https://tribes.tribe.net/thehoopersjournal/thread/75b204e7-c7f1-47e7-8b7b-35dd3b1d9988
https://tribes.tribe.net/hoopersforum/thread/216b5a14-cb64-4c44-8bc8-4f8667dc413c
One of the out comes of the discussion was that we decided that if you post a video you should write a few sentences about it explaining your intentions for posting the video and if you would like feed back. Because sometimes you just want to post a nice moment type video and don't necessarily want any feed back but others you do. This really helps when you want to leave feed back because you know that’s what the person was looking for.
Maybe this idea would help on HoP?
This is very interesting that you have brought this up just now.
We have just been discussing this same topic in depth on a hooping forum that I spend a lot of time on.
Here are a few links to some of the threads because I feel that there is some discussion in there that is really great and would probably apply here too.
Beware some of this is actually in relation to an incident on the forum so it could be convoluted but there is also good discussion in there.
https://tribes.tribe.net/thehoopersjournal/thread/75b204e7-c7f1-47e7-8b7b-35dd3b1d9988
https://tribes.tribe.net/hoopersforum/thread/216b5a14-cb64-4c44-8bc8-4f8667dc413c
One of the out comes of the discussion was that we decided that if you post a video you should write a few sentences about it explaining your intentions for posting the video and if you would like feed back. Because sometimes you just want to post a nice moment type video and don't necessarily want any feed back but others you do. This really helps when you want to leave feed back because you know that’s what the person was looking for.
Maybe this idea would help on HoP?
I {Heart} hand me downs and spinning in the snow.<br /><br />
SILVER Member
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Rampant whirler.
2,418 posts
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Posted:
I had a flick through those posts ElectricBlue and I guess I agree with feedback/no feedback. I'll give mine unless it says no feedback.
The point was made in the other posts that you mightn't want feedback if its just a bit of a lazy kickabout and you're not really making an effort to be performancy... but I know thats when I need the MOST feedback... all the errors that slip into my more performance like stuff have always been there in my more lazy moments... in fact sometimes I like to just get a bit lazy and see what happens... clean that up and see if it continues to happen, then I know what to keep a specific eye on when I'm performing... and if everything goes to plan even when I'm lazy, I'm that one step closer to not having to think about my poi and I can concentrate on what my body is doing instead.
I kinda always assumed that if people were just having a random twirl and got one of my constructive criticism comments they'd just go "Eah... well I was just having a bit of a kickabout anyway... so phooey!" But maybe some are more sensitive.
I bring this up not because someone has actually reacted poorly to my comments, but I really just wouldn't want to offend someone...
Most of the time I give more ideas than anything.. I look at where people seem to be progressing toward and give a few tips for stuff they might want to look into. Or like "You know you can do that with more/less beats for a different effect, right?"
I dunno if a specific "system" is required, all these other posts are pretty old and so the issue that those people had is mostly gone... the ones that seemed to be pro-criticism are only ones I recognised as still being kicking around the forums.
To anyone that really WANTS constructive criticism on their poi feel free to send me a PM and I'll give it to you... Otherwise I'll just probably giving it to you, depending on the amount of free time and patience I have when you release the video.
I had a flick through those posts ElectricBlue and I guess I agree with feedback/no feedback. I'll give mine unless it says no feedback.
The point was made in the other posts that you mightn't want feedback if its just a bit of a lazy kickabout and you're not really making an effort to be performancy... but I know thats when I need the MOST feedback... all the errors that slip into my more performance like stuff have always been there in my more lazy moments... in fact sometimes I like to just get a bit lazy and see what happens... clean that up and see if it continues to happen, then I know what to keep a specific eye on when I'm performing... and if everything goes to plan even when I'm lazy, I'm that one step closer to not having to think about my poi and I can concentrate on what my body is doing instead.
I kinda always assumed that if people were just having a random twirl and got one of my constructive criticism comments they'd just go "Eah... well I was just having a bit of a kickabout anyway... so phooey!" But maybe some are more sensitive.
I bring this up not because someone has actually reacted poorly to my comments, but I really just wouldn't want to offend someone...
Most of the time I give more ideas than anything.. I look at where people seem to be progressing toward and give a few tips for stuff they might want to look into. Or like "You know you can do that with more/less beats for a different effect, right?"
I dunno if a specific "system" is required, all these other posts are pretty old and so the issue that those people had is mostly gone... the ones that seemed to be pro-criticism are only ones I recognised as still being kicking around the forums.
To anyone that really WANTS constructive criticism on their poi feel free to send me a PM and I'll give it to you... Otherwise I'll just probably giving it to you, depending on the amount of free time and patience I have when you release the video.
Firedance Philosopher
79 posts
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
79 posts
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posted:
Well, people often have a dichotomy of interests where as what you are really responding to at most times is their intent, not their words. This factor is pretty confusing and has caused a bit of a social drift since the internet became a growing factor just because we talk to a lot of people now adays we don't actually know, so they have little way of responding to intent, and instead respond to words.
I'm not sure if you understand, so I'll clarify to context.
Some people post to want criticism, but do not actually want it; what they instead want is affirmation and might blame the bringers of bad news for having opinions that are contrary to their belief in their own talent. This causes people to diplomatically shy away from such avenues of conversation.
It seems very silly, but humans are very silly =]
Second point, I think it was either Jon Everett or David Yates (us 3 were together when this was said, sorry bad memory >.<) who told me that poi spinning is kind of like Jazz, like that if you're not a musician you won't really "get" it.
What that means is that the informed/experienced perspective of poi(CJ/Staff/Diab/DS) is very different from the average joe just because we tend to think on a hugely technical level which people who see poi or fire spinning can't dissect in their minds.
It's kind of like looking at contemporary abstract art in the way that the normal passer by won't REALLY be able to tell if it's good or bad "art" but they can tell if it's a pleasant painting and worth putting in their living room.
What the point in essence is that we see as individuals things very differently, and really the only objective truth can be found by looking at your own videos, looking at others, and using your powers of introspection to evolve your art, and if you want advice on how to reach a certain goal people will gladly help, and that figuring out your goals is going to allow you to progress much better as an artist than asking what your goals should be. But of course that's totally your call.
Well, people often have a dichotomy of interests where as what you are really responding to at most times is their intent, not their words. This factor is pretty confusing and has caused a bit of a social drift since the internet became a growing factor just because we talk to a lot of people now adays we don't actually know, so they have little way of responding to intent, and instead respond to words.
I'm not sure if you understand, so I'll clarify to context.
Some people post to want criticism, but do not actually want it; what they instead want is affirmation and might blame the bringers of bad news for having opinions that are contrary to their belief in their own talent. This causes people to diplomatically shy away from such avenues of conversation.
It seems very silly, but humans are very silly =]
Second point, I think it was either Jon Everett or David Yates (us 3 were together when this was said, sorry bad memory >.<) who told me that poi spinning is kind of like Jazz, like that if you're not a musician you won't really "get" it.
What that means is that the informed/experienced perspective of poi(CJ/Staff/Diab/DS) is very different from the average joe just because we tend to think on a hugely technical level which people who see poi or fire spinning can't dissect in their minds.
It's kind of like looking at contemporary abstract art in the way that the normal passer by won't REALLY be able to tell if it's good or bad "art" but they can tell if it's a pleasant painting and worth putting in their living room.
What the point in essence is that we see as individuals things very differently, and really the only objective truth can be found by looking at your own videos, looking at others, and using your powers of introspection to evolve your art, and if you want advice on how to reach a certain goal people will gladly help, and that figuring out your goals is going to allow you to progress much better as an artist than asking what your goals should be. But of course that's totally your call.
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
Originally Posted By: ElectricBlue
One of the out comes of the discussion was that we decided that if you post a video you should write a few sentences about it explaining your intentions for posting the video and if you would like feed back. Because sometimes you just want to post a nice moment type video and don't necessarily want any feed back but others you do. This really helps when you want to leave feed back because you know that’s what the person was looking for.
Maybe this idea would help on HoP?
That's an excellent idea.
IMO the days of people looking for constructive criticism are over and I treat most videos I watch as performance videos and apply only kudos unless there''s something seriously wrong.
If we look at the ratio of people who post only videos, yet don't participate in these forums, to those that do participate, we're left with a high percentage of people who just "drop off" a video hoping, IMO, to get nothing but those kudos.
Remember when, back in the day, video comments were directly related to the time posters spent in chat? Now that's morphed into IRL connections with most people commenting on videos by people they actually know with several good videos by unknowns slowly dropping to the bottom of the page, viewed, but commentless.
It might be interesting to have views by users not logged in counted, as it used to be before the software update, that way, we could get a better idea of just how many people watch videos through this site rather than just going directly to Youtube.
Originally Posted By: ElectricBlue
One of the out comes of the discussion was that we decided that if you post a video you should write a few sentences about it explaining your intentions for posting the video and if you would like feed back. Because sometimes you just want to post a nice moment type video and don't necessarily want any feed back but others you do. This really helps when you want to leave feed back because you know that’s what the person was looking for.
Maybe this idea would help on HoP?
That's an excellent idea.
IMO the days of people looking for constructive criticism are over and I treat most videos I watch as performance videos and apply only kudos unless there''s something seriously wrong.
If we look at the ratio of people who post only videos, yet don't participate in these forums, to those that do participate, we're left with a high percentage of people who just "drop off" a video hoping, IMO, to get nothing but those kudos.
Remember when, back in the day, video comments were directly related to the time posters spent in chat? Now that's morphed into IRL connections with most people commenting on videos by people they actually know with several good videos by unknowns slowly dropping to the bottom of the page, viewed, but commentless.
It might be interesting to have views by users not logged in counted, as it used to be before the software update, that way, we could get a better idea of just how many people watch videos through this site rather than just going directly to Youtube.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
That was beautifully said Lev, and spot on.
It also explains why I have such a hard time with judging the COL videos and why I stay the hell out of the vids section on here.
However, contrary to your example, I don't view things from a technical point of view and I've been doing poi for...over a decade I think.
I don't care if someone does jedi-80bt-back flip inclusive anything.
I am a performer, that's what I know, it's how I came to poi even. I want to be entertained, which def involves strong technique but also so much more, anything that is stunt-stunt or lots of cuts isn't performing to me. I think many people who put vids up for critique are looking for something more technically based, so I don't bother.
I can only critique and base my decisions on my perceptions and experiences, what I know and what I teach, and that would be a well rounded presentation.
I also agree that frank self-observation is an astounding, and very *very* difficult thing. People tend to be on the extremes when they view themselves, they either think they are wonderful or horrible. Middle ground is lost somewhere. The objectivity needed to evaluate oneself is very difficult to come by, which is why we look for critiques of others.
I think the seeking praise through masque of critique is because we need validation that we are not wasting our time. This is where *constructive* criticism is most beneficial. Giving someone feedback that gives them something to work on and something gone well that they can take with them tends to balance the ego out I think.
Perhaps.
I dunno.
I haven't had coffee yet
That was beautifully said Lev, and spot on.
It also explains why I have such a hard time with judging the COL videos and why I stay the hell out of the vids section on here.
However, contrary to your example, I don't view things from a technical point of view and I've been doing poi for...over a decade I think.
I don't care if someone does jedi-80bt-back flip inclusive anything.
I am a performer, that's what I know, it's how I came to poi even. I want to be entertained, which def involves strong technique but also so much more, anything that is stunt-stunt or lots of cuts isn't performing to me. I think many people who put vids up for critique are looking for something more technically based, so I don't bother.
I can only critique and base my decisions on my perceptions and experiences, what I know and what I teach, and that would be a well rounded presentation.
I also agree that frank self-observation is an astounding, and very *very* difficult thing. People tend to be on the extremes when they view themselves, they either think they are wonderful or horrible. Middle ground is lost somewhere. The objectivity needed to evaluate oneself is very difficult to come by, which is why we look for critiques of others.
I think the seeking praise through masque of critique is because we need validation that we are not wasting our time. This is where *constructive* criticism is most beneficial. Giving someone feedback that gives them something to work on and something gone well that they can take with them tends to balance the ego out I think.
Perhaps.
I dunno.
I haven't had coffee yet
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
4,061 posts
Location: South Africa
Posted:
Sounded good to me.
Sounded good to me.
'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland
Similar Topics
Using the keywords [nice good video critique] we found the following existing topics.
Show more..
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com