Forums > Social Chat > Bigger than me..

Posted: 31st May 2002
Hi earthdreamer. I saw your name up on the "currently in the room" bit, & thought, I haven't heard from you in a while. It is good to have you back...

I am a sorta Aussie. Am currently waiting to take my citizenship pledge. This was a big deal for me. It made me wonder whether I should apply. But I knew I had little chance of changing it from outside.

I am horrified at the conditions that these people are forced to live in, and by the conniving behaviour of the Federal Government in all their attempts to redefine the status of these people so they can get away with that treatment. That we presume guilt rather than innocence is astounding.

You face a difficult dilemma. Australians have a strange relationship with the law. if they feel a law is unreasonable, they will protest it to the death. However they seek obedience to the letter of the law when they do not object to them, as they feel it produces that "fair go for all".

So when you are seen to break the law, the average aussie will often focus on that rather than the message you are trying to get across. I think that is one of the worst things about the situation you now find yourself in. People will not listen to why you took this drastic action, they will just make the statement "but, you broke the law". It is a great shame.

I love Australians, but often they are a lot more rigid than the image they would like to portray.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 31st May 2002
the most devestating treatment of humans in our detention centres, was broughtto a head for me when the toys that we left at the gates for the children were taken away from them, with ACO explaining to us that they could easily make feul bombs out of the dolls and cut into there bodies with toy cars...
the children are not given any areas to play in in detention, one child at the gates looked at me asking why, what did a 9 year old do to be locked behind bars, these baba, are not given af=dequate calcium to grow properly, this is child abuse, the state takes kids away from parents for neglect such as this....so whats going on?
i need a strong voice , yeah, i am part of a strong voice that is saying no more to this....
ahhh, there is too much to say, really, it will all come out over this forum,
but, yeah, we are thinking we are gonna plead not guilty, and state basically that the law breakers are the government, their policies and their ignorance....

Posted: 31st May 2002
I hope it goes well for you. The general push at the moment seems to be for a crack down. However the legal system may be more enlightened than the political one.

One of the things that has been raised is that the children do not receive adequate education. And in those instances where lessons are provided, it is done at the time of day when meals are served. Now meals are only served to those present at meal times. If the children are absent, because of lessons, they miss out.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 6th Jun 2002
Here's some long, overdue attention from the world:

https://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/06/06/aust.detention/index.html

Who knows, maybe the publicity will spark a fire under your politicians' asses finally and get them to wake up and stop treating refugees like animals.

Fear the evil monkey!

Posted: 6th Jun 2002

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supafly:
Who knows, maybe the publicity will spark a fire under your politicians' asses finally and get them to wake up and stop treating refugees like animals.

---

sadly, that's pretty fuken unlikely, cus the liberal phux in Canberra take a safely conservative and ignorantly reactionary response to the issue. Most of all, what i am ashamed of is how easily the commercial media has swayed the australian public at large to despise refugees. I came to Australia as a refugee and I'd be so meantally fucked up if, after all danger, the australian public saw me as outcasts and terrorists.

The xenophobes in parliamant are slaves to domestic sentiment - the climate of hate and fear has blinded what is otherwise the 'Sydney 2000' image of down under to such important issues as refugee policy and Indigenous Reconciliation - issues which now languish as they focus on financial policy and political bickering.
Change will only come when the policymakers are forced to react to a public incensed at the inhumanity we presently inflict on our guests.

Until then, history will look *very* unkindly at what we as a nation have allowed to happen and is still happening.

"The state premiers now have direct control over
territories. Fear will keep the local councils in line. Fear of this refugee policy."

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
I used to be heavily involved in direct action, the trouble is the way the media can easily bend it to make you out to be a terrorist, after all, who is in control of the mass media? Criminal Justice act and all that. With the introduction of the new prevention of terrorism act in the UK, I becam a terrorist......... funny thing considering I'm also a pacifist to a certain extent.

A world without prisons, A world without borders.
This was the banner we carried at one of the mayday protests in london.

My thoughts are with you earthdreamer, this must be a hard time for you. And if the worst comes to the worst, know that out there somewhere, there'll be a spiral, dancing for your freedom.

[ 07 June 2002, 12:41: Message edited by: Spiral ]

Posted: 6th Jun 2002
maybe i would understand our refugee policy if they threw in a 'its not economically viable to let people in' (to which they would probably forget the growth of new industries which come with introducing new cultures...), which seems to be the general justification for alot of this government's policies - but instead they go with something like 'border-protection', which they can run with the scare campaign after sept.11....its much easier to see refugees as barely human, when we portray their culture to be a group of extremist potential suicide bombers. You don't see many suicide bombers in a culturally tolerant society... so if the government wanted to breed tolerance and acceptance, then more people would be all up for taking in refugees...but instead, its just easier to spread cultural ignorance...'safer'

hmm...i rarely post much on here, but i'm a social policy student, so this kinda hits a nerve with me

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
Basically from what I hear Australia is a severely racist country, in many ways equal to South Africa 20/30 years ago. Not only does it treat refugees appallingly, but the government and many people treat Aborigines as animals, who live in conditions worse than some third world countries.

Did you know Australia is the only developed country whose government has been condemned as racist by the United Nations. And Australia has been known to bar UN human rights officials from entering Australia and investigating further. Australia's appalling human rights record and the stories I've heard really made me think long and hard about whether I wanted to visit there and give any money to a racist government.

Sadly across the world countries are becoming more and more hostile to refugees and immigrants and it's really fustrating. These are refugees from around the world who have been tortured, raped, made homeless and seen their family members killed. These people need somewhere to recapture their lives, make a new start for their families, and instead they're treated like animals and despised.

Direct action does make people take notice, it does have an effect. Voting for a more liberal government is action. Make your voice heard anyway you can, be it in the pub, your school, marching down the street or outside Woomera.

earthdreamer, you have my upmost respect. good luck.

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
No, Dom, Australia isn't as bad as South Africa was 20 - 30 years ago, because racism is not enshrined in laws. There is no legal apartheid in Australia, and Australia has the same laws relating to racism, sexism, etc that Britain and other Western Countries have, and those laws are enforced in the same way that they are in Britain and elsewhere, although the concept of "Institutional Racism" is not something that many Australians would recognise and understand.

There is, however, a lot of hysteria and lack of a sense proportion when it comes to refugees in Australia at the moment, as well as the same move to the right that is being seen across Europe. I think it has something to do with being so isolated. A thousand or so people turning up on the nations' doorstep is looked at in raw figures, with no consideration for the thousands streaming into Europe and the millions streaming into Pakistan and Iran.

As for the aborigines, with due respect the issue is far, far more complicated than anyone outside Australia dreams. Yes, massive wrongs were done to the aboriginal population (and I am deeply ashamed that the Aust. Govt refuses to issue a proper apology) but aborigines are given all the social security benefits that any other citizen is given in Australian society - unemployment benefits, housing benefits, etc, and there is in fact positive discrimination for educational assistance, government posts etc, and has been for many years.

What makes the issue so complicated is the social breakdown and psychological damage caused by official policy right up to the 60s, isolation, poverty (existing on benefits), alcoholism (aborigines are particularly prone to this disease) alcoholism, alcoholism, alcoholism and yes, racism.

Just as a final word, I would like to tell you all a story. I tutored an aboriginal lady at Uni on a one to one basis. She missed an enormous number of sessions because her extended family obligations came first and she had to travel back to her community to attend two different funerals, for relatives that were distant enough that I would have put Uni first and not gone. This is an example of the different values that aborigines have, which to Western eyes, where the work ethic is paramount, lead to discrimination.

During our first tute, she said to me that she wanted me to know that the reason she did not look me in the eye was because among aboriginal people it is disrespectful to look at people in the eye... a mannerism as deeply engrained as is white person's need to look someone in the eye.

The implications are enormous, and a perfect symbol for the difficulties in relations between the two groups: The two peoples sharing this continent cannot even talk to each other without disrespecting the other party.... no wonder the issue is so complicated!

Sorry about the rant, but at the same time as being deeply ashamed of the current government, I did want to straighten the record a little.

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
Racism not enshrined in the law? It doesn't have to be clearly stated in the law for it to be real. Anyway, how about: The mandatory sentencing laws, the native title act, the abolution of Abstudy. Can't remember them all at the moment. The fact is there are plenty of obsticles that mean that Aborigines are kept as second class citizens.

Saying something is more complex is no answer, everything is really, really complex. If people can't deal with complex then they can't cope with life. Aborigines do not have equal rights, and racism is rife. Aborigines don't have access to the facilities that whites do. They're researched and proven facts.

A Maltese friend of mine spent a few weeks travelling around Australia. She's short and dark. Everywhere she went she got treated badly and had even abuse shouted at her in the street, because they thought she was Aborigine.

Maybe Australia is just being really slow shaking off it's past. It's only a few decades since Aborigines were described as fauna rather than native people. Australia was partially built by exploiting the Aborigines as slaves, stealing their homeland and killing hundreds of thousands of them in a prolonged genocide. Admitting, even internally, to such a dark past is not easy, but the Australian government doesn't really seem to be trying at all and seems to be in denial.

Disclaimer bit: Most of the Oz people I've met have been really lovely, open-minded, fluffy people who are well wicked.

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
The treatment of the refugees in Australia and other countries truly sickens and saddens me, too often the media puts 'blinkers' on us to cover the real humanitarian nightmare going on and people need to be made aware of the situation.

Earthdreamer, you are a true human being and I have the utmost respect for you. What you tried to do in Woomera counts more towards the future of this planet than any contribution the pen pushers make and even if the law condemns you, the mirror will never. I wish you the best of luck in the future and if you can I'd love to hear how things go. My email is djsalinger@hotmail.com.

Peace.

A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
Saying that something is complicated is just to point out that there are NO easy solutions. It is easy to condemn, to point out the problems, but much harder to do something about it. The 'doing something about it' is something Australia has been desperately trying to grapple with over the last 30 years.... and I mean seriously grapple with (with the exception of the current government, unfortunately).

You are right that a law like mandatory sentencing, which although applying to all, may disproportionately affect aborigines and is therefore racist. That relates to my point about institutional racism and the fact that it really is rife. But to be fair, institutional racism has only had any meaning in Britain since the Macpherson report, it's not surprising it hasn't reached Australia yet, especially given the current government.

I am intrigued that you quote the Native Title Act as being racist!The Native Title Act, despite all the hedging and obstacles in it to actually obtain Native Title over a piece of land, is in fact a HUGE step forward legally. The Mabo court case and the NTA overturned 200 years of consitutional law which said that Australia was "Terra Nullius" (empty land). Perhaps the articles you have read about it emphasise the obstacles, rather than recognising what a legal earthquake it was for boring, dusty consitutional law! Canada had a similar courtcase 20 years earlier, which in fact was used as precedent in the Mabo case. Canada seems to be about 20 - 30 years in front of Australia when it comes to this sort of thing, although 5 years of Howard has probably set us even further back.

This issue is a problem common to many countries with indiginous minorities... both the US and Canada have indiginous minorities with very similar problems.

Yes, the current government stinks - they're the ones that have done things like the abolition of abstudy. I hate them, I didn't vote for them, and it is disgusting how they manipulated the Australian people before the last elections, and the Australian people were stupid and naive to be taken in by it - and then to let them get away with it when the truth came out. The govt SHOULD apologise for what was done to aborigines in the past.

Yes, many Australians are very racist, particularly towards aborigines, but the situation is so complex that no one knows any real solutions. I am so grateful to people like Earthdreamer who take a real stand. And grateful to everyone who doesn't let friends make a semi-racist comment without picking them up on it, because that's the only way general attitudes will change.

Eeek, another rant. Sorry!

and yes, thanks Earthdreamer, it's wonderful what you are doing.... Blessed be.

[ 08 June 2002, 00:51: Message edited by: Sepa ]

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
Australia at this time is a perfect example of how the commercialisation of the media can undermine the spread of unbiased information to the general public about political matters.

A lot of the commercial media in Australia, which has the largest audience, aims at covering only "sexy" pieces. They want short punchy headlines and stories that will encourage audience viewing. Journalists often do not have enough time to properly research stories, instead they rely on press releases from interested parties to both give them the angle and the facts. Essentially the journalists rely on the people marketing the story to them. The current government are both excellent marketers in this sense, and have also taken great trouble to block media access in other areas.

The government is currently attempting to redraw the sea boundaries that define Australia in terms of Australian law such that should refugees land on islands previously within this boundaries, they will not have to be processed as refugees by Australia.

The important thing to note with this is the extra-ordinary timing. The press releases and accouncements have occurred at the same time as the report by a UN mission exploring conditions in the refugee camps here. The coverage of what is an essentially sensationalist story is clouding the coverage of the criticism of Australia by the UN.

Where the UN's comments are covered they can only be done in brief, such that all that will be absorbed is the "criticism" rather than the reasons for it. Hence the government's actions can be seen by the general public as them protecting Australia in the face of unreasonable criticism by an outside party. Very canny manouvering.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
is it immature of me at this point to giggle at the fact that the CNN gave the phrase 'Australian Outback' all capitals, like it's an actualy destination?

Hey, did anyone send flowers to the detention centres for, what was it? World Friendship Day? peace? something? what came of that practise?
were the flowers deemed deadly weapons and removed from the detainees? (well, duh. They'd hayfever the guards to death, and escape)

Posted: 7th Jun 2002
hey Rozi.. i completely agree with you about the state of the commercial media here in oz.. it's disgraceful, in the end it's all just a ratings competition. Independant media is the only way to go.
earthdreamer, i hope everything works out for ya'!

For folks who didn't make it to Woomera (like me) here's another chance to make a stand.

quote:

---

Maribyrnong 2002 - fri 28 june - sat 29 june
Make a stand against mandatory detention, against inhumane detention centres and against our racist government! Come and show solidarity with refugees, trapped in camps such as Curtin, Port Hedland, Woomera, Villawood and in Melbourne's backyard, Maribyrnong Detention Centre.

FESTIVAL DAY AND RALLY

Friday 28 June 2002
- A student strike and rally outside Maribynong Detention Centre at 2pm

Saturday 29 June 2002
- Festival and Rally Day
Mass rally at 11am, followed by a day of festivities. Join some of Australia's top musicians, with food, speeches, workshops, and entertainment.

Make a stand and come with your friends and family to show solidarity for freedom with the refugees!

Maribynong Detention Centre
Hampstead Rd.
Maribynong MELWAYS REF: 27 H9

directions:
Take either the 57 or 82 trams, get off at Highpoint Shopping Centre, walk down Rosamond Rd. turn right into Williamson Rd. and then left into Hampstead Rd. Alternatively for public transport for Friday's rally meet at Flinders St. Station at 1pm and Saturday's rally at 10am for further directions.

-Refugee Action Collective

---

[ 08 June 2002, 15:16: Message edited by: falloutboy ]

-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

Posted: 8th Jun 2002
all you guys rock thanks for being so supportive...
we have been labeled terrorists by the government...ha, i mad a patch for my red shirt the other day that says...terraist.
as in earth, i would do anything for the people on it..
contact refugee action collective and get some names of refugees and send them letters, and love,
they need to know we care....
go to any demo that you can and screams your loudest for a changed refuf=gee policy, and if you can, go to a detention centre, because our world citizens shouldn't be hidden away anymore..

peace

Posted: 8th Jun 2002
you know what the worst of this is? i read the newspapers, i watch the news yet i only found out about this a little while back and that was from someone returning from oz...

it needs some severe media coverage over here. Cos i'm going over to kick ass...

vic xx

ex-hop-aholic, now inconsistent lurker...

Posted: 9th Jun 2002
falloutboy, glad you mentioned maribyrnong. =)

I'm not Australian, but have been living here the past 6 months (on a student visa).
I've been trying to get involved with the campaign, because mandatory detention (and tpv, etc.) is a horrible policy.

There have been lots of events throughout the year, aside from Woomera. On Mayday a lot of protesters went to Maribyrnong detention center and tore down some of the fences. There were HUGE steel fences that we were not able to nudge, but on June 28-29 things might be different.
There was also a picket of Ruddock's meeting in Melbourne on May 31, and there have been various meetings in the city (including one in town hall) which have been pro-refugee.

In addition to the Maribyrnong protest, there is also a **World Refugee Day Rally** on Sunday, June 23rd. (June 20th is World Refugee Day, but Sunday is the rally).
It's at 1 pm in front of the State Library.. there will be speakers, music, etc.

***
I hope the Maribyrnong protest will be huge; I STRONGLY encourage everyone in Melbourne who feels that the policy of mandatory detention is wrong should go. There will be a bit more going on Maribyrnong than just bands, vigil, and protest... we're trying to
BRING THE SPIRIT OF WOOMERA TO MARIBYRNONG!
***

Earthdreamer, good luck in the courts. There's a solidarity benefit for those who were arrested at Woomera:

******
WOOMERA SOLIDARITY BENEFIT 2002

When: Thursday 13th June
Where: The Evelyn, 351 Brunswick St, FITZROY
Doors Open: 7:30

All proceeds will go towards the defence of protestors charged at WOOMERA and the campaign to free the refugees.
Music by: Cabal - Spare Change Society - Walrus Brolga Boys - DJ Strom
Woomera footage SKA TV
Tickets on sale at the Door $8/$10
******

Also, here is info about RAC:

Refugee Action Collective - Victoria
refugeeaction@mail.com
www.rac-vic.org

RAC-Vic has another email list, with regular
emails of news articles.
To subscribe to this list, email
racvicnews-subscribe@topica.com

They need help handing out flyers, postering the city, etc.. So if anyone has some free time, give them an email, or stop by trades hall

Remeber that civil disobedience, protests, etc. are not the only things that change laws. Laws are changed by court decisions, by people writing to their representatives, etc.
The more people who voice their dissent, the greater chance for change.

~Drea

[ 09 June 2002, 17:28: Message edited by: Drea ]

hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

Posted: 11th Jun 2002
In a further bid to 'protect' our borders from boat people, the gutless bastards in goverment have decided to reduce Australia's migration zone. Prime Minister John Coward plans to wash his hands of rescuing anyone. This is no solution, this is cruel indecency. Sadly, the state of domestic politics in Australia has sunken to a level where Xenophobia fuels public applause for any two-bit populist with a 'tough-on-people-smuggling' stance. So much so that the inhumanity of letting 350+ asylum seekers drown just off ashmore reef cause barely a ripple in australia's migration policy. where lies of children overboard and migrant terrorists are first presented then covered up, used as tools for the public opinion game. It saddens me that the very human toll is still being exacted - to public ignorance. The law of the sea is that all vessels respond to all craft in distress - not only is it international convention, it would be almost murder through neglect to do otherwise.
Presently there are intelligence reports that a small craft allegedly carrying 50 Vietnamese asylum seekers are heading towards Australia - 21 years ago, My family went through the same journey, and even to this day, the South East China Sea suffers the most active piracy in the world. If a merchant vessel had not rescued us (our food and belongings were taken by a pirate raid), my family would have been another statistic for the Australian public to ignore. The average dude on the street finds it easier to believe the commercial media's smoke screen than to confront the intolerance that is construed by the global village as collective australian heartlessness.
action with the rhetoric! Seey'all at the rallies!

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 11th Jun 2002
In my professional opinion (ya right ) If you are going to contribute to society and not mooch off of others (like the countless who would rather live on welfare then try to get a job)I welcome you to any country especially America. I have no desire to support you unless you are also working to support yourself.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

Posted: 12th Jun 2002
A social welfare apparatus is a first world institution. You do not hear East Timorese complain about slackers, my friend, but be sure that theirs a life of much harder work and opportunities than you or I. If it were not for humane refugee policy, I would surely not be inthis office right now. To believe that such an inordinately complex issue such as the interplay of political asylum/foreign policy/migrant integration/instituional racism simply boils down to local employment is to be unaware of issues beyond one's own petty domestic issues.

The corporate media has vested interests - by being fooled by their tainted view is to succumb to ignorance and fear.

People used to tell us 'refugee go home' - but we would, if we could.

Raymond, my father served with the US high command (he earned a purple heart in combat) and we would have been absoulutely fucked had we stayed in Vietnam. I hope you understand that refugees are humans too. they have families, twirl fire and serve in the military.

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 12th Jun 2002
raymond, those refugees who come to Aus, and of course other countries are also, like you, professional people...they are engineers, doctors, teachers, they have families they have paid to come here, with their whole life savings, they have much to contribute to society...it costs the government MORE to keep these human beings in detention, than to give the full protection visas and infiltrate them into society...for these people to get a chance to make a life for themselves by coming here, it would cost the government only $25 a day to get them on welfare and assist them in a looking for work program.multi skilling etc....you can bet on your life that given a chance these people would be working as soon as they could...for all people want to feel safe, important and be filling roles...
the government i believe has no foresight.

i also believe that welfare, being the dole in Australia, has a place, i personally for the time being am reliant on it, and everyday grateful for the money i recieve, this allows me to focus on self development and to help others...
i have not always been on the dole, and will not be forever at all..
i would and do help people regardless of their situation...

Posted: 12th Jun 2002
Refugees who come into the country (regardless of their profession)(in the unlikely event that they've survived 3+ (in some cases) years of mandatory detention and they get a TPV) are probably NOT going to be able to get great-paying jobs..
They will also have to pay back lawyers for court costs, and I believe (though someone correct me if I'm wrong) the government charges them for mandatory detention, so they have a huge loan to pay off...

I think that they do need the dole to help them get off their feet. If anyone thinks that a person would risk their lives in a over-filled, potentially-leaking boat, live through years in detention, to get a pension from the government is sadly mistaken.

~Drea

hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

Posted: 12th Jun 2002
Yes, yes and yes.

Posted: 12th Jun 2002

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drea:
Refugees who come into the country ....are probably NOT going to be able to get great-paying jobs.. If anyone thinks that a person would risk their lives in a over-filled, potentially-leaking boat, ... to get a pension from the government is sadly mistaken.

---

we the only jobs we could find when we got here were clothing sweatshop jobs. If anyone is familiar with that exploitation, you'd know that it was no farking walk in the park. It is high pressure, stressful low paying crap. for years. We came here for opportunity to make something of ourselves, not a handout - as some people imply. We still have this (now broken) wind-up clock that was bought with the first $20 we earnt in Australia. (the first thing that we created in Australia, (20 years ago!) was my best friend - my lil' sister! - and No, arsn, you can't have her number!)

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

Posted: 12th Jun 2002
Damn it...

---------------

Non-Https Image Link

I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

Posted: 13th Jun 2002
A lot of people don't realise that people applying for refugee status are NOT allowed to work in Australia. Most of the would love to, but they get kicked out and their application is instantly dismissed if they get caught earning anything! What sort of an upside down policy is that? I've known people living completely off charity, desperate to get some work so they don't take money away from people who really need it like the elderly and the sick, but they can't! How stupid.

Posted: 5th Dec 2005
Tum te tum....

Meh