Forums > Social Chat > What is the UK?

Posted: 17th Jan 2005

Written by: Molly

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OK, more confusion for you

Wales is Not a country, it is a Principality headed by our dear Charlie boy, the Prince of Wales you see?
Scotland is still a country.
Apparently this is to do with the fact that the English conquered Wales back in the day, whereas King James VI (I) - the Scots had had lots of James, the English none hence the silly title - united the two Kingdoms since he happened to be king of both.

I hope that is right or I'll be in trouble.

Northern Ireland is still a mystery.
The Isle of Man has a certain amount of autonomy in law making - silly things like having no speed limits on some roads and never needing an MOT.
The Lord of Man is Queenie, making it a Crown Dependancy and they have a Lieutenant Governor appointed by the queen and a Chief Minister elected by the people.
more info

learn something new etc. etc.

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Well this all makes the transformers analogy more complicated, so I think we should ignore it.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

Posted: 17th Jan 2005
Yes it is.

America is short for "The United States of America".

50 states. Period.

We've got some holdings in addition but they're other countries and districts.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 17th Jan 2005
so this rumour of a whole continent is just pure speculation then?

Posted: 18th Jan 2005
No, Molly, the continent is called North America. This is what Canadians say when they want to include Canada, the US, and Mexico. (Or just Canada and the US, actually, but they're JPW on that.)

If you want to include the entire New World, you say "North and South America."

Note I'm not talking about any technical definitions here, but about actual usage: what people say when they mean various things, and what people will think you mean when you say various things. Even Canadians call us "Americans."

Actually, NYC, there are several places in the United States that are not part of any of the 50 states. The District of Columbia is one; Puerto Rico is another.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

Posted: 18th Jan 2005
oh,
news to me

still, the atlas I had when I was little still had half the world painted pink

I think in geography lessons at school we referred rather grandly to The Americas, left them be and went off to learn how to draw detailed maps of India by hand.
Probably for the best

Posted: 18th Jan 2005

Written by: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)

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Actually, NYC, there are several places in the United States that are not part of any of the 50 states. The District of Columbia is one; Puerto Rico is another.

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Wow... that's a great point.

That I said.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 18th Jan 2005
Hmm. You said "50 States. Period. We've got some other holdings in addition but they're other countries and districts." That didn't sound like you realized that Puerto Rico, far from being either a district or another country, is actually a part of the United States. I mean they get to vote and everything.

Apologies if I read you wrong.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

Posted: 18th Jan 2005
Wrongo.

Puerto Ricans don't get to vote in federal elections nor do they get to vote for congressmen. They have no federal representation at all.

Taxation without representation.

Some New Yorker you are... don't even know you're Puerto Rican history. Oh yeah, you're Jersey.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 19th Jan 2005
OK, now you're fighting dirty...hmm, which of NYCs many dubious traits shall I use against him...nahh. I'll be good this time.

You're quite right about Puerto Rico. They cannot vote in presidential elections, and have a voice in Congress but no vote (which some might claim counts as representation, but not me). Live and learn.

My main point does not change, though. Washington DC is not part of any state but IS part of the United States proper, and its residents CAN vote in presidential elections (since 1961). They still have no Congressional representation, though: DC license plates say "Taxation without representation" at the moment!

Sounds like you weren't actually disagreeing with any of this, and I did misread you. Sorry.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

Posted: 2nd Sep 2012
Originally Posted By: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)The BRITISH ISLES are a land mass. They include Ireland, which is NOT part of Great Britain.

Margaret Thatcher [the audience hisses the villainess] once famously said "Forget 'British' -- I'm an ENGLISH nationalist, and don't you forget it!" She then proceeded to demonstrate that GB is not a nation, but a group of subject allies (Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and (anciently) Cornwall), ruled by the nation of England.

Whether this is less so now than when Thatchescu was in power I cannot say. I defer to our friends in the UK. (Full disclosure: I'm Irish-American and still pissed off about the Potato Famine. Which is probably why I'm -American, actually.)

This is a good example of the difference between "State" and "Government." In most places the Head of State is also the Head of Government. Not in the UK: Elizabeth II is the Head of State, but Tony Blair is the Head of Government. The Pope (not a big fan of his but he got this right) likes to visit Heads of State, but not Heads of Government; therefore he visits Her Maj, but not the PM.

Here's where the Commonwealth comes in. It is one "State" (in the sense used in "Head of State"), but multiple governments. The Queen is Head of State in Canada and Australia, but has no power over their governments, since they're independent COUNTRIES; nor does the British Parliament have any voice in their affairs.

And btw the existence of a Prime Minister, while a remnant of actual monarchic government (which is nearly extinct today), isn't necessarily an indication of even a monarchic state, just of a parliamentary system: Israel has ministers and a Prime Minister, and has never had a monarch in its 57-year history.

This is my understanding. However, I'm an ignorant American, and any part of it may be wrong. Please correct me if so. When and in what context did Mrs Thatcher say she was an English nationalist?

Posted: 2nd Sep 2012
Originally Posted By: NYCFirst of, let me say that my very clever Molly explained this to me very well. Unfortunately, I've found no supporting information and quite a bit of conflicting information. Nobody in my school understands either.

Here's what I know:

England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain
Great Britain + Northern Ireland = "The United Kindom"
I also know that there are some very small islands off of the coast that are exceptions to the above.

What I don't understand, and keep getting conflicting information about, is which of the above are COUNTRIES.

Is the phrase "Scotland is a country within the country of Great Britain, which is within the country of the United Kingdom." correct? Cuz that just sounds weird.

[Note, it's just the word 'country' I'm having issues with, not the geography.]

So I guess to make it simple...

Question 1:
Is "Scotland" a country?

Question 2:
Is "Great Britain" a country?

Question 3:
Is "The United Kindom" a country?

I could throw a wrench into it all by bringing up the word "nation" but let's keep it simple.

I'd like the most technically correct answer. Everything I keep getting is "Well, you could say that..." and "It's almost like..." and "Most people would just say..." but there's got to be a 'real' answer and I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks!

UK's biggest fan,
NYC Answers to questions:

1. Scotland is a nation.

2. Great Britain is a state comprising three nations: England, Scotland & Wales.

3. The United Kingdom is a state comprising Great Britain plus the province of Northern Ireland.

The population of England [some 53 million] accounts for over 84% (and increasing) of the UK's population of some 63 million.

The 10 million or so peoples of Northern Ireland, Scotland & Wales [ie less than 16% of the total UK population] have three devolved assemblies between them, but England has none.

The British [note 'British'] Government has an undeclared policy of eradicating England and, with her, the English. Various attempts [both the Major and Blair administrations] have been made to destroy her as a national entity, first with so called 'regional chambers' and then 'regional assemblies'. No official records are maintained about the English as an ethnic group as evidenced by the 2001 and 2011 Censuses and the ethnic monitoring categories used in (for example) Education, Health, Local Councils etc.

Comparisons with constitutional arrangements in the USA and elsewhere are largely irrelevant.


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