Forums > Social Discussion > video filming & editing - ethics and legalities

Posted: 14th May 2005
i think generally, if your leting the camererman film you do whatever..then you should reep the consequences of the outcome, whether they be good or bad.

Posted: 14th May 2005
erm - i think if it's for public viewing then ideally the person publicising (sp?) it should ask the permission of the people included first.

I have had vids posted that I think represent me badly without knowing about it first.

However, I knew I was being filmed. If you don't want to be on any viseo at all I think it's your responsibility to make that clear.

In things such as vids of big meetings it's going to be very very difficult to get everyone's permission.

Geologists do it in the dirt................

Posted: 14th May 2005
I'd like to see filmers asking the people they're filming if it's OK, and explaining to them what the footage is being used for.

At spinning meets these days there's video cameras all over the place and no one ever seems do the polite thing, which is to ask the people they're filming if they mind.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 14th May 2005
i think legally if you do anything in a public place you can be filmed and it can be broadcast

but i think ethically you should ask before it should be clear what will happen with the footage. At the moment im editing an end of year video and we've had to re-shoot bits because they were strongly objected to by the people involved and i think its only polite

flip side id that at big meets its hard to get permission from everyone

the main issue is editing - i think here its most important to be VERY careful what you do. make sure that how you cut things does not make the meaning ambiguous (eg the Michael Jackson interview with martin broshere(sp?) ) any time when you want to do something like that it should be checked with the person concerned and made clear in the video whats going on.

back

Posted: 15th May 2005
I agree with the concensus that people should be asked/informed that they are being filmed. However, editing is my main point of concern...

I believe that if you have just 1 hour of an individual on film, you can quite easily make them out to be:

1) An awesome Jedi Knight of a spinner with A+ attitude and persona

2
3
4...

10) The devil himself, with no skillz at all.

This can apply to all walks of life and media imo. The result is all in the edit.

So this is what I'm curious about - the ethics of editing footage without consulting the subject of the film, rather that the ethics of filming them.

Any more thoughts?

Jo.

Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 15th May 2005
I agree, i always let people know if i'm filming/photographing them in particular (either by explicitly saying it, not making any secret of it or showing them afterwards), and if people object, i don't publish it. If they at a later date decide they don't want it online, again I respect their wishes. There's been a note on my photo/video site since it was made over 3 years ago mentioning it, along with contact details, and it has happened in the past. I've never knowingly shot anything with the sole purpose of pissing someone off and I'm really not that much of a [censored] to keep it online if it does.

What is sad however, is in the past when people haven't objected to it at the time, haven't asked me to take it offline aftwards, but instead have just bitched to other people (both those i've met and those i haven't) behind my back about it. That sucks

Posted: 15th May 2005
Well, hands up, I'm one of these people who films lots at gatherings, flims lots of different people and then puts them up for download without asking... (I know I've put one up of OWD, but i don't think I've ever filmed Jo)

Partly, yes, it would be pretty difficult to get everyone's permission to use the footage - for example at last years' HoP/PiP sheffield gathering or Falmouth 4 - I was just filming lots of random people walking about, a few "solo shots" of people spinning and everything else inbetween. Should gatherings have to include a waiver form as concert tickets do saying your attendance is taken as acceptance that you'll be filmed as a participant for broadcast? No. (Well, I don't think so anyway )

Personally, i don't go out to film anyone in particular - just whatever's going on around. Especially with the "gathering" videos - I just try to capture the vibe of the event; so all levels of spinners, mistakes, drops, non-spinning, people learning new stuff etc etc. I hope this comes across in my videos, and if people get "caught on camera" messing up a move then I never do this to make them look bad, just to show others who may not have attended a meet before, that not everyone attending these meetings is of A+ standard..

I can see that there are exceptions to this. For example if (off the top of my head, this isn't an actual thing I've done) BamBam and Dizzy were performing their staff routine, I would ask to film that and make sure it was ok to put it up for download - as this is their routine for their pro-outfit and not the kind of thing you want people to be able to "rip-off" or whatever. If someone really objects to being filmed, then I wouldn't put that up, but generally - when you're filming someone, they know about it, and (I've found this to be 90% true) do perform for the camera - keeping their planes towards you for example.
As far as I know, i've only once covertly filmed someone (Firepoise with the fire-palms at Falmouth 3) and let her know afterwards as this was a very specific "Here is Firepoise with fire palms shot" as opposed to a quick 10 seconds of footage, in the back left of the screen is Firepoise.

Another random thought - which may be way off the mark - but if people are happy to spin in front of lots of unknown people at gatherings, how is having it filmed and viewed by more unknown people any different?

All the things we do, regardless of our reasons for doing them, are performance arts - i.e. they're done for other people to watch (Of course, you might do them for yourself. but people still will watch). I think alot of the time it's a wee bit of perfectionism coming into play when people don't want a video of them put up as they don't look their best, make a mistake or whatever. However, another "clause" of this would be on solo videos i.e. where the entire video is just one/two people spinning their sets - when if people want to show people where they're at with their learning - they of course have the right to say that the video's completely missed the mark.

The mini solo-shots I use are meant to flattering. dsAds for example is one of, if not the best devilstickers I've ever seen (and a damn good juggler too) and his 'sticking needs to be shown to as many people as possible, especially other devilstickers, as inspirational and educational material (Edutainment - genius). I know i've learnt alot my of faveourite tricks from watching online videos and in some ways I hope I'm returning the favour.

Hmmm, this is possibly one ot the longest replies I've ever written. Guilty conscience perhaps?

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 15th May 2005

Written by:

---

but if people are happy to spin in front of lots of unknown people at gatherings, how is having it filmed and viewed by more unknown people any different?

---

Because Jo is talking about the editing afterwards.



If everyone was there, seeing what was happening, they will form their opinions based on the whole event/spin/communication/interaction/show whatever.



If that initial piece is subsequently edited and in some way misrepresents the person filmed, then what is then being shown to a lot of 'unknown people' can be radically different.



I think, if editing a SOLO piece where ALL the focus is one one person, then that person should be shown the edited piece before it is used.



If someone has the time to spend editing a piece of footage then it should not take much more time/effort to ask the permission of those involved before putting it online/showing it publicly etc.



If editing footage from a gathering I don't think this applies. People go to play and have fun, the focus is rarely on one person, and unless the filmer is deliberately (and maliciously) mis-representing someone through the subsequent editing then what appears on the video is just one person's view of the event they attended.



(edited to add a little more )

Geologists do it in the dirt................

Posted: 15th May 2005
oh, the worms....

and the open cans

does anybody really want an opinion?

i'm under orders not to rant today , so might wait til tomorrow...

hugs
R

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Posted: 15th May 2005
Ah yes, I seemed to have missed the point again

I tend not to edit peoples actual spins, only cutting up the footage, so I don't edit out drops, mistakes etc. I edited the "Tim Section" on my Falmouth 3 video to make it shorter, but generally I'll just put a straight un-cut shot of someone spinning in, trimming only the start, ending or both

Gives a more "as if you were there" feel to them I hope.

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 15th May 2005
eh? what happened to my quote? oh and bleumog, your orders are temporarily suspended

Geologists do it in the dirt................

Posted: 15th May 2005
aha!
tis only a short rant, and i bring it on myself(as i edit myself all the time)

i get filmed a LOT.
e.g. at bristol last year, the first time i picked up a staff, i had 6 cameras in thirty seconds pointed at me.
matt(poipoipoi) and i think ben asked me straight away if it was ok. nobody else did. this makes me mad.
mostly because sometimes(and those who know me might laugh long and loud at this) i DON'T want to be performning. and a camera always makes me feellike i am.

so my guidelines for that bit are: if you are specificcally filming someone(and not a general 'gathering shot') ask, or if that would interrupt, ask after or in a suitable pause(as a filmer i also know that sometimes it's difficult to capture the moment if you interrupt flow).

as for editing.
yes yo shold always ask and show, and no it's not always possible. certainly if you are unsure you should ask the person who was filmed.
as for style, thats a totally individual thing : i.e. i edit out most drops. i certainly don't expect people to watch the videos i make and say 'wow, he doesn't drop in this, he must never drop!' but some people like it warts and all, and thatse just individual taste. again, ask if you're unsure, and get it out of public viewing asap if there's a problem.

and finally: the editor has some skill and personal preference too. please show a little respect for them by understanding that maybe they have a reason for cutting it the way they do. if there is a problem, bring it up and don't bitch btb(;)) for they will probably outlne their reasons clearly and hopefully sensibly. if, in discussion, your arguements outwheigh theirs, it'll get taken down. if you can't explain why you don't like it, maybe leave it up and you'll gte positive response from sources you would never have expected.


*endtinyrant*

incidentally i think there's more, but i'm a little unclear where jo wants this thread to go...?

order reinstated
ta fluff

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Posted: 15th May 2005
Blue: "i'm a little unclear where jo wants this thread to go...?"



in the direction it's going in... and any applicable tangents too



I do think there are 'unwritten' rules about filming and editing footage... and it would be good to discuss them.



I personaly don't have much of a problem being filmed without being asked, just as long as I'm not 'fenced in' by cameras which puts me on edge (in case I wack a cameraman or the camera with a firey toy) - And that does happen occasionally. For me, though, it's the editing that has made me nearly gag once or twice... but it's good to hear any views that apply to filming others etc.



Jo.
EDITED_BY: Jo (1116323003)

Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Posted: 15th May 2005
I don't know about the U.K.,,but in this part of the world it's legal to film anybody doing anything in a public place as long as it's for editorial content, which the videos on this site are.

Things change drastically if the footage is going to be used for commercial purposes. That's when model release forms and attention to trademarked logos become serious issues.

Ethically?? I think the editor should seek the approval of all persons appearing on the video whenever possible..after all, this is all in the name of fun.

Posted: 17th May 2005
The legality varies from place to place but in general

In most cases public spaces is fine EXCEPT where it is a performance where the performer must give EXPLICIT permmission for the footage to be used. THAT IS USED not just taken. This is because the ideas, tricks, routines etc are the intellectual property of the performer(s). This includes casual meets etc...... take that any way you will but basically if you are publishing it be VERY carefull of what you get on camera, written release forms are ALWAYS a good idea.

As for Editing, again being a professional Editor/Camerman/Producer/Tech_God etc. Most release forms basically state that the footage can be used in ANY manner desired. This may or may not be perpetual, ie just for the one production or forever (Read the agreement). Generally if you like your talent and plan to use them again be nice. But in the end the Editior has last say (except for the Exc. Producer, the Producer, the Clients, The distrabution Company Etc......)

My advice if you are really precious about your twirling let people know that you dont want to be filmed. Or better yet just dont pick up your toys when cameras are about, kind of sux but really there arn't a lot of options.

BTW if some uses you without your permission then there is recourse, hence why most people use release forms. You don't want to create a master piece and then have to reedit it because some norg in the background gets upset about being in the background. Get their permission or move where your shot is controlled to avoid the issue.

Camera_Wuff

"The company of those that seek the truth is
always preferable to those who think they have
found it"

Terry Pratchet
Monsterous Regiment