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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Timing Transitions/ Speed Changes (Warning: Nerd Thread)
Login/Join to Participateenthusiast
384 posts
Location: West LA
384 posts
Location: West LA
Posted:
At this years EJC I was teaching a friend of mine what I consider fundamentals of Poi. He is a martial arts staff master (
Carsten), understands what he is talking about and he asked me an interesting simple question that I was not really able to answer:
How do you transition from Same-time to Split-time swinging.
Immediate answers would be: Speed up one Poi or slow it down for half a beat.
But in my oppinion this only answer one part of the question. The other more subtle part would be: How do you actually change the speed of the Poi?
We do it automatically without thinking but understanding the principles and consciously doing it is a different field.
Isolations/stalls seem to take out momentum and extensions/counterstalls increase it, as well as antispinning and normal spinning have their part in the process, but where does the actual change in speed come from and what differences are there?
I am more than open to every idea and suggestion
andy
At this years EJC I was teaching a friend of mine what I consider fundamentals of Poi. He is a martial arts staff master (
Carsten), understands what he is talking about and he asked me an interesting simple question that I was not really able to answer:How do you transition from Same-time to Split-time swinging.
Immediate answers would be: Speed up one Poi or slow it down for half a beat.
But in my oppinion this only answer one part of the question. The other more subtle part would be: How do you actually change the speed of the Poi?
We do it automatically without thinking but understanding the principles and consciously doing it is a different field.
Isolations/stalls seem to take out momentum and extensions/counterstalls increase it, as well as antispinning and normal spinning have their part in the process, but where does the actual change in speed come from and what differences are there?
I am more than open to every idea and suggestion
andy
To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
Holy smoke batman! The multiple super fast name changing seems to have stopped!
Yeah, I hadn't noticed this until 2bags pointed it out to me. He hates it when people force timing of their poi from same to split.
I thought after that that maybe one of changing timings without forcing it is to get one poi to follow a larger arc and come back into the pattern late, so that the timing changes. But I'm not sure if this changes the timing, or I just slow the long arm down.
Otherwise, stalling, but that's too easy. I'm sure other people that can actually do poi will have more to say about this than me.
Holy smoke batman! The multiple super fast name changing seems to have stopped!
Yeah, I hadn't noticed this until 2bags pointed it out to me. He hates it when people force timing of their poi from same to split.
I thought after that that maybe one of changing timings without forcing it is to get one poi to follow a larger arc and come back into the pattern late, so that the timing changes. But I'm not sure if this changes the timing, or I just slow the long arm down.
Otherwise, stalling, but that's too easy. I'm sure other people that can actually do poi will have more to say about this than me.
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
Are you asking how we physically do this or are you trying to find out different ways of changing timing?
As far as the physical part goes... As you said, its automatic. Our muscle memory knows what split time reels feel like, and it knows what same time reels feel like... Therefore, your body can subconsciously calculate what it will need to do to make the switch from one to the other. Now, as with EVERYTHING in poi, we can do this pretty much anywhere, anytime. For instance - Do a same time forward butterfly, stall the right hand over left and go into a split time same direction spin... Then do the same thing, except go into a same time same direction spin... Both work, right? I dont think there really are any rules or special fundamentals to how it works, its just based on your personal rhythm, muscle memory, and creativity.
Are you asking how we physically do this or are you trying to find out different ways of changing timing?
As far as the physical part goes... As you said, its automatic. Our muscle memory knows what split time reels feel like, and it knows what same time reels feel like... Therefore, your body can subconsciously calculate what it will need to do to make the switch from one to the other. Now, as with EVERYTHING in poi, we can do this pretty much anywhere, anytime. For instance - Do a same time forward butterfly, stall the right hand over left and go into a split time same direction spin... Then do the same thing, except go into a same time same direction spin... Both work, right? I dont think there really are any rules or special fundamentals to how it works, its just based on your personal rhythm, muscle memory, and creativity.
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Spin same time, Isolate one do the other one giant, extinguish the poi and light your hands on fire. Split time.
What? You said it was a nerd thread.
Written by: PoiBoxII
How do you transition from Same-time to Split-time swinging.
Spin same time, Isolate one do the other one giant, extinguish the poi and light your hands on fire. Split time.
What? You said it was a nerd thread.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
15,417 posts
Location: South Wales
Posted:
I think he actually called it a Neard thread.
Must be something to do with facial hair....
I think he actually called it a Neard thread.
Must be something to do with facial hair....
SILVER Member
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
your new best enemy
246 posts
Location: over the river, through the woods, USA
Posted:
on the up swing, let gravity slow one chain down just enough to get it to split timing. then do the same to get back into same time. just let it fall into place on the upswing then you can continue where you left off. so I guess in the long run, I slow one down to get into and out of split time
on the up swing, let gravity slow one chain down just enough to get it to split timing. then do the same to get back into same time. just let it fall into place on the upswing then you can continue where you left off. so I guess in the long run, I slow one down to get into and out of split time
I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
You read wrong, NYC... It's a NEARD thread!
Now get outta here ya freakin' NERD!
You read wrong, NYC... It's a NEARD thread!
Now get outta here ya freakin' NERD!
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
Andy-
How do you do it? you change the amount of tension in the string..
what do I mean by that? your hand.. the more your hand follows the poi, the more slack (and less tension) the string has.. thus it flies of its own momentum, is subject to gravity and such.. this is how I get int stalls and poitn isolations.. if you follow it with tension, then you can slow the poi down like a breaking system. (think of it like your hand being dragged by the poi, and thus creats.. lol.. drag.. slowing the poi down).. which is how I do sharp stalls and what tight isolations that come abrubtly.. conversly the mroe tension you put on the string, the sharper you pull its orbit, which causes it to speed up.. think about flower petals.. when you stop your hand the poi cant go any further so it pulls itself into the 'petal' circle.. if you had more tension by pulling the poi, you can create even more velocity.. if you keep pulling your hand away from the poi, the poi will continue to be pulled harder towards your hand..
Is that what you were gettting at in a round about way? or did I shoot way off with that one? this is kinda of a summary of how I teach point isolations.. which involve tight control over the speed of the poi as they use a large number of speed changes..
Andy-
How do you do it? you change the amount of tension in the string..
what do I mean by that? your hand.. the more your hand follows the poi, the more slack (and less tension) the string has.. thus it flies of its own momentum, is subject to gravity and such.. this is how I get int stalls and poitn isolations.. if you follow it with tension, then you can slow the poi down like a breaking system. (think of it like your hand being dragged by the poi, and thus creats.. lol.. drag.. slowing the poi down).. which is how I do sharp stalls and what tight isolations that come abrubtly.. conversly the mroe tension you put on the string, the sharper you pull its orbit, which causes it to speed up.. think about flower petals.. when you stop your hand the poi cant go any further so it pulls itself into the 'petal' circle.. if you had more tension by pulling the poi, you can create even more velocity.. if you keep pulling your hand away from the poi, the poi will continue to be pulled harder towards your hand..
Is that what you were gettting at in a round about way? or did I shoot way off with that one? this is kinda of a summary of how I teach point isolations.. which involve tight control over the speed of the poi as they use a large number of speed changes..
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
addict
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
If you really want to know, it's called centripetal force:
https://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html
pretty much what Rev said...
If you really want to know, it's called centripetal force:
https://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html
pretty much what Rev said...
Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"
BRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada
Posted:
I like this talk of braking the poi, especially as a way to isolations. I know the concept when it comes to stalls but I've always sort of " fallen" into isolations.
Food for thought
I like this talk of braking the poi, especially as a way to isolations. I know the concept when it comes to stalls but I've always sort of " fallen" into isolations.
Food for thought
addict
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
Well, when spinning, the pivot area is going to be your wrists or hands in general. When doing giant spins, the pivot area becomes your chest. However, when doing isolations, you transfer the pivot to a portion of the string/chain of the poi. If you're doing fully equal isolations, then the pivot is the center of the string between your hand and the poi.
Sooo.. If you can imagine moving the pivot from your wrist/hand to the center of the chain by arching your hand around that center point (spreading your hands apart from a tight spin), as well and at the same time as the poi end, then you can force an isolation any time that pivot transfer can take place.
edit:
Also, by slightly transfering the pivot area against or towards the spin of the poi, you increase or decrease the speed of the poi due to tension (moving my statment a little more on topic :P), as rev was describing.
Hrmm.. that make any sense, or at all useful? I should really remember to sleep occasionally :P.
EDITED_BY: Suibom (1128046578)
Well, when spinning, the pivot area is going to be your wrists or hands in general. When doing giant spins, the pivot area becomes your chest. However, when doing isolations, you transfer the pivot to a portion of the string/chain of the poi. If you're doing fully equal isolations, then the pivot is the center of the string between your hand and the poi.
Sooo.. If you can imagine moving the pivot from your wrist/hand to the center of the chain by arching your hand around that center point (spreading your hands apart from a tight spin), as well and at the same time as the poi end, then you can force an isolation any time that pivot transfer can take place.
edit:
Also, by slightly transfering the pivot area against or towards the spin of the poi, you increase or decrease the speed of the poi due to tension (moving my statment a little more on topic :P), as rev was describing.
Hrmm.. that make any sense, or at all useful? I should really remember to sleep occasionally :P.
EDITED_BY: Suibom (1128046578)
Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"
SILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom
Posted:
if this were really a nerd thread someone would have mentioned dr klaus by now...
this book takes a close look at which poi we speed up when to make these transitions so that we may keep our poi on beat (assuming you are spinning to music) and still know which one will be where.
i think the methods we use to do this are largely intuitive and are learned in those first few weeks/months that we use poi.
the physics of this process is actually pretty complicated - you first have to model the motions of the hand that keep poi going, and that itself is far from simple.
speed changes can then be modeled by varying the amount of torque created by your hand.
i can spin quite a few variable speed and polyrhythm patterns now - its another one of those things that i know how it works but have trouble finding a simple way of explaining how to practically do it.
i think symmetrical polyrhythm patterns (lots of speed changes without noticably moving the rotation points of the poi up or down the string/arm) are a good example of what we were discussing re: breaking habits...
cole. x
if this were really a nerd thread someone would have mentioned dr klaus by now...
this book takes a close look at which poi we speed up when to make these transitions so that we may keep our poi on beat (assuming you are spinning to music) and still know which one will be where.
i think the methods we use to do this are largely intuitive and are learned in those first few weeks/months that we use poi.
the physics of this process is actually pretty complicated - you first have to model the motions of the hand that keep poi going, and that itself is far from simple.
speed changes can then be modeled by varying the amount of torque created by your hand.
i can spin quite a few variable speed and polyrhythm patterns now - its another one of those things that i know how it works but have trouble finding a simple way of explaining how to practically do it.
i think symmetrical polyrhythm patterns (lots of speed changes without noticably moving the rotation points of the poi up or down the string/arm) are a good example of what we were discussing re: breaking habits...
cole. x
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
BRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Posted:
As Meg touched on, if you can get affect the diameter enough with out changing the speed of the poi you can alter the timing from same to split.
Although I reckon this would require either a lot of self control to not cheat and slow/speed the poi up, and (depending on lenght of arms and poi) would take multiple beats to fully resolve into proper split time.
*tries to work out the formula to work out how much r must be increased by to make D 50% longer - is that right?*
You could also instead of changing D, take it right out of plane without speeding up/slowing down as you're making the poi's path longer. But this would probably just look sloppy.
Nice practising things are cross-time spinng: 3/2, 4/3, 7/4 etc and switching between them all.
As to how to physically speed the poi up, personally it's a push (or pull to slow down) with the wrist, which creates a small wave of momentum down the chain pushing the poi forward (or backward) enough to seperate them, then there's probably a lot of subtle adjustment where lots of spinning experience comes into play as your hands will naturally come into the rhythm of split/same time spinning.
I've think I've probably missed a lot of the point of this thread though...
As Meg touched on, if you can get affect the diameter enough with out changing the speed of the poi you can alter the timing from same to split.
Although I reckon this would require either a lot of self control to not cheat and slow/speed the poi up, and (depending on lenght of arms and poi) would take multiple beats to fully resolve into proper split time.
*tries to work out the formula to work out how much r must be increased by to make D 50% longer - is that right?*
You could also instead of changing D, take it right out of plane without speeding up/slowing down as you're making the poi's path longer. But this would probably just look sloppy.
Nice practising things are cross-time spinng: 3/2, 4/3, 7/4 etc and switching between them all.
As to how to physically speed the poi up, personally it's a push (or pull to slow down) with the wrist, which creates a small wave of momentum down the chain pushing the poi forward (or backward) enough to seperate them, then there's probably a lot of subtle adjustment where lots of spinning experience comes into play as your hands will naturally come into the rhythm of split/same time spinning.
I've think I've probably missed a lot of the point of this thread though...
Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude
enthusiast
384 posts
Location: West LA
384 posts
Location: West LA
Posted:
Thx a lot tor the answers
Meg: Longer Arcs
Jaero: Working with Gravity
Rev:
Drubs:
Both is possible
Suibom:
In my oppinion one can in-/decrease the speed that way but its not a must. It would be interesting in what way the pivot point is moved in relation to the spin.
Coleman: [(Any plans for this winter? We havent had a chance to nerd off the last times we met and I think I gonna fly back to Europe via Londonia)]
Personally I dont really understand the principle behind it, I can understand some physical aspects and would be able to talk about it for quite some time, but still the click
is missing. The only thing my mind tells me is that it has to do with spirals, energy, the tantien, four dimensions and love 
Simple things seem to be easy and easy things seem to be simple
andy
Thx a lot tor the answers
Meg: Longer Arcs
Jaero: Working with Gravity
Rev:
Written by:
pulling the poi, you can create even more velocity
Drubs:
Written by:
pull to slow down
Both is possibleSuibom:
Written by:
by slightly transfering the pivot area against or towards the spin of the poi, you increase or decrease the speed
In my oppinion one can in-/decrease the speed that way but its not a must. It would be interesting in what way the pivot point is moved in relation to the spin.
Coleman:
Written by:I agree 100% but I that is even more basic nerdism than this thread. Ueberbasic so to say
you first have to model the motions of the hand that keep poi going, and that itself is far from simple
[(Any plans for this winter? We havent had a chance to nerd off the last times we met and I think I gonna fly back to Europe via Londonia)]Personally I dont really understand the principle behind it, I can understand some physical aspects and would be able to talk about it for quite some time, but still the click
is missing. The only thing my mind tells me is that it has to do with spirals, energy, the tantien, four dimensions and love Simple things seem to be easy and easy things seem to be simple
andy
To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .
BRONZE Member
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Bastard Newbie Messiah
1,269 posts
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA
Posted:
to quote one of my teacher's papers 'Easy is getting harder all the time' (yeah its a rip off of a country song too) but it was for a paper he wrote where he discussed how we work so much on hard problems that their solutions become more apparent to us, and the simple problems in up having incredibly complex analysis. Its one of those things where you just 'know how' but you don't 'know' 'how'.. and thus the description of these incredibly simple things become increasingly harder to describe. I know I'm not doing his paper any justice..
anyway..
I think I mentioned both that pulling the poi foces the sharp tension which makes the poi spin faster because it pulls it into the arc.. the other pulling is when the poi is mostly freeflying.. and that kinda pull is more like drag.. because you arent pulling harder than the poi's has momentum (or would velocity be abetter word).. what I mean is.. the poi still has the momentum to travel the dirction its going..its still 'pulling' your hand even though your hand is 'pulling' against it. which is different from the pull that speeds up a poi in whihc the hand is pulling HARDER than the poi is, and the poi has to change its path to accomodate that type of force..
as far as modeling the hand motions that keep it going.. that's not as hard as I think cole makes it out to be.. I think that is a direct product of the above description.. the hand is moving in a circle similar to that of the poi.. this circle keeps the hand pulling in a way that (as irnoic as this sounds) is opposite to what the poi is pulling.. if you start with the poi pointing straight down its the inital hand movement that pulls the poi via the tension in the string.. this gives it the force to go flying off, but the tension in the string keeps the poi pulled in a circle around the hand.. whihc means that initially the hand is moving a fraction of a degree (as in degree of the circle.. I think thats how angles are done) ahead of the poi in its circle.. whether or not that eventually comes to balance and the poi and hand are exactly in the same degree I dont know.. I assume that once the poi are moving it reaches that equilibrium.. but that's hard to guage, because we dont realize how often we sort of 'let off' when we spin.. By that I mean all the times whenour hand doesnt make circles but realy makes egg shapes and such that changes the amount of force it is exerting at the poi at different points in the circle, but because of the wrist rotating and (handles moving if you use them) and the arm moving the wrist in tiny circles.. you have a whole slew of centers of spin spiraling within centers of spin within centers of spin.. and that I think is where the ugliness of the hand motions come in.. but by that point arent you getting into the nitty gritty of the physics and less about the general guideline that you need to effectly control the spin the way you want?
to quote one of my teacher's papers 'Easy is getting harder all the time' (yeah its a rip off of a country song too) but it was for a paper he wrote where he discussed how we work so much on hard problems that their solutions become more apparent to us, and the simple problems in up having incredibly complex analysis. Its one of those things where you just 'know how' but you don't 'know' 'how'.. and thus the description of these incredibly simple things become increasingly harder to describe. I know I'm not doing his paper any justice..
anyway..
I think I mentioned both that pulling the poi foces the sharp tension which makes the poi spin faster because it pulls it into the arc.. the other pulling is when the poi is mostly freeflying.. and that kinda pull is more like drag.. because you arent pulling harder than the poi's has momentum (or would velocity be abetter word).. what I mean is.. the poi still has the momentum to travel the dirction its going..its still 'pulling' your hand even though your hand is 'pulling' against it. which is different from the pull that speeds up a poi in whihc the hand is pulling HARDER than the poi is, and the poi has to change its path to accomodate that type of force..
as far as modeling the hand motions that keep it going.. that's not as hard as I think cole makes it out to be.. I think that is a direct product of the above description.. the hand is moving in a circle similar to that of the poi.. this circle keeps the hand pulling in a way that (as irnoic as this sounds) is opposite to what the poi is pulling.. if you start with the poi pointing straight down its the inital hand movement that pulls the poi via the tension in the string.. this gives it the force to go flying off, but the tension in the string keeps the poi pulled in a circle around the hand.. whihc means that initially the hand is moving a fraction of a degree (as in degree of the circle.. I think thats how angles are done) ahead of the poi in its circle.. whether or not that eventually comes to balance and the poi and hand are exactly in the same degree I dont know.. I assume that once the poi are moving it reaches that equilibrium.. but that's hard to guage, because we dont realize how often we sort of 'let off' when we spin.. By that I mean all the times whenour hand doesnt make circles but realy makes egg shapes and such that changes the amount of force it is exerting at the poi at different points in the circle, but because of the wrist rotating and (handles moving if you use them) and the arm moving the wrist in tiny circles.. you have a whole slew of centers of spin spiraling within centers of spin within centers of spin.. and that I think is where the ugliness of the hand motions come in.. but by that point arent you getting into the nitty gritty of the physics and less about the general guideline that you need to effectly control the spin the way you want?
More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown
GOLD Member
Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
4,219 posts
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr, United Kingdom
Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
4,219 posts
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr, United Kingdom
Posted:
funny how the word nerd is closely connected with either Rev, Cole or Celine Dion's Spank Puppet up there (yes i mean UCOF)....
funny how the word nerd is closely connected with either Rev, Cole or Celine Dion's Spank Puppet up there (yes i mean UCOF)....
Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible
PLATINUM Member
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Flying Water Muppet
5,276 posts
Location: Edin-borrow., United Kingdom
Posted:
actually andy I misread your thread and I was hopeing nobody would notice that I was talking about something else. Though it seems a valid point that you can also slow down one poi, rather than speeding one up.
I was talking about not forcing a timing change by speeding up or slowing down a poi, but rather by using a long arm or other poi movement to bring the poi to a new timing without the forcing of it.
I never thought of forcing timings as being ugly and newbie like for instance forcing a plane change from follow to butterfly, but now I do.
Off to play with variable speeds. bye bye!
actually andy I misread your thread and I was hopeing nobody would notice that I was talking about something else. Though it seems a valid point that you can also slow down one poi, rather than speeding one up.
I was talking about not forcing a timing change by speeding up or slowing down a poi, but rather by using a long arm or other poi movement to bring the poi to a new timing without the forcing of it.
I never thought of forcing timings as being ugly and newbie like for instance forcing a plane change from follow to butterfly, but now I do.
Off to play with variable speeds. bye bye!
"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade
I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.
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