Forums > Social Discussion > fines for bullying

Posted: 25th Oct 2005
Given that many bullies' parents are not exactly rich, it'll probably not help. It'll either be paid for by the state, or give them even less money to spend sensibly.

But generally, forcing parents to be more aware of what their kids get up to in school seems a good idea. How about making the parents or the bullies themselves (if they're old enough) do something sensible like unpaid work for the council or the families they've been annoying? Would even work for the richer ones if they couldn't just pay and then look away again.

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Posted: 25th Oct 2005
I find fining parents for their bullying is a bit ridiculous. I can't say I'm aware of the psychological properties of a bully, but I wouldn't necessarily blame it on the parents. Typical of society now a days, you're pointing the finger somewhere else.

Bullying, in my experience is just a phase. I've bullied kids, and I've been bullied. I'm significantly older now, and I've hung out with people I bullied since then, and hung out with people who bullied me, and it's all cool.

If I were parent (if you haven't gathered, I'm not) a fine would be an annoyance, a letter threatening to kick my kid out of school would be a problem. I don't believe money (in the form of fines) will solve the problems of bullying.

Please send food!

Posted: 25th Oct 2005
It's a half and half issue. The parents have half the responsibility, in teaching their kids the right way to do things, and the kids have half the responsibility, in picking up and applying that teaching.

Maybe fine the parents a small amount (say $50-$100, or 1/4 a weeks wage or something smallish), and make the bully do some community service?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 25th Oct 2005
I think there are two issues here.

1) Are parents financially responsible for damages caused by their children?

2) Is bullying a crime which would warrant a financial punishment.

You'd have to answer "Yes" to both questions to make the above make sense.

I personally believe that making the parents SOMEHOW responsible for their children's actions is a good thing. I'm not sure that a ticket is the way to do that.

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Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 26th Oct 2005

Written by: Munkustrap

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Typical of society now a days, you're pointing the finger somewhere else.

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and if the parents arnt responsible for being the childrens primary behaviour/role modelling then who is exactly?

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
my sister in law 'fines' her kids when they're mean to one another. she doesn't tolerate them calling each other names or putting each other down. when she sees them do that she'll fine them, usually about 50 cents or something small, but it gets them thinking about what they've done. it seems to me like it's lessened the amount of teasing that goes on between them. i'm not saying they're perfect kids, but they seem more conscious of how they treat each other.

i think there would be a lot of angry parents if this fining of the parents came into practice, and many people will see it as blaming them for not raising them properly. it may just lead to hostility between the parents and school. i think that the parents should definitely be informed, but i'm not sure if parents getting fined is a solution.

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
i'm kinda of torn on this issue,i think,as with most things,it depends on the individual case.

for example,i was bullied for many years as a child,by a girl who lived a few doors away fromme,her parents were informed and disciplined the girl accordingly.however,this created a backlash-making the bullying worse.

her parents were fantastic,and i believe genuinely did everything they could to dissolve thesituation,they even moved her from my school to try and stop her,unfortunately to no avail.
this girl had decided she wanted to make my life hell,and nobody,not even her parents,were going to stop her.

when the abuse finally turned physical,the parents,after many hours of apologising,to me and my mum,and various discussions,accepted defeat and moved away in the hope that it was just something personal the girl had against me.

i have no idea where or how she is now,but the thought of ever bumping into her still makes my blood run cold.

i strongly believe that in this case,punishing the parents for the childs behaviour would've been wrong,as they really did try.

however-you also hear many stories of parents'turning a blind eye' to their childs behaviour issues,for whatever reason,they don't discipline their children correctly,and often very little is done to prevent bullying.

when this is the case i believe that parents should be held partly responsible.


i don't necessarily agree with fines,as like somebody else said-it wouldn't matter that much to the rich kids,but some sort of punishment,in some cases is necessary.

although,perhaps if fines are brought in,the money could go towards helping/instructing parents of bullies how to discipline, and control their children better??

any thoughts?

Posted: 26th Oct 2005

Written by: ben-ja-men

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Written by: Munkustrap

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Typical of society now a days, you're pointing the finger somewhere else.

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and if the parents arnt responsible for being the childrens primary behaviour/role modelling then who is exactly?

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Rap Music.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
ITs not allways striclty the parents fault, and if it is its probably something they did years ago when they where young, letting there little tear aways get away with things like throwing dirt at other kids when they where 4, and the parent didnt want to deal with a tantrum in public.

Eee I dont know, back in my day if you bullied anyone at school they got the oldest (and scaryest) looking senior teacher to glare at you in the face and shout at you, allways worked in my school. If your gonna punish anyone punish the kids cosue most bullying goes on when the kids are old enough to know its wrong anyway.

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'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
But when you consider that most kid's that do "bully", they don't really give a crap what their parents do, most parents think it's the schools "responsibility" But if the parents have no controll over their kids, who can they blame? What are you ment to do to a kid that doesn't listen to their parents, if anything not going to school or bullying TO get the parents to pay a fine.

The only reason i'm scared of little kid's is because I know in ten year's time they'll be mugging me.....

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
Yeah, fining's prolly not the answer, but there's a mess of parents what need to be brought to bear some actual responsibility on this issue...

I really like whoever mentioned community service. I think both the parents and the kids should have to do some for bullying instances....

Its interetsing, cause when I was in primary school bullying was completly ignored.... My mum actually was quite upset about it (I didn't even tell her most of it) but the school wouldn't do anything about any of it... in fact I remmeber one day I was icing my head cause someone slammed a locker door into it (those things are big and metal!) and was having trouble concentrating on maths and the teacher just started yelling at me in front of the class about it and took my ice away and threw it in the trash(bin). It hurt! surely it wasn't odd that I was having trouble getting my work done?

*shakes head*

community service is one of the most overlooked forms of punishment, I think, it has so many benefits, and the rich can't dodge it as easily/.....

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Posted: 26th Oct 2005
hmm... real interesting,

i was thinking fining doesnt solve or deal with the problem, it just says look we are doing something about this on paper... doesnt that just avoid the issues involved unless fines are backed up by support...?

Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
well said!

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
*hates bullies*

Grrrrr....

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
In my experience, violence solves everything.

No, really.

I was bullied by people only until they physically attacked me, then I kicked their heads in. They didn't bully me after that. Job done. Dib dib dib.

And frankly, in this one case, I don't care in the slightest about what emotional problems the other person has, or how deprived they are. You hit me and your ass is fair game. If you can't beat them in a straight fight, walk up behind them and punch them in the kidney/kick them in the balls.

Teachers either don't take it seriously, or assign punitive punishments, which often makes it worse. Ignoring it makes it worse. You have to show them that you aren't helpless.

I give you 3 REAL LIFE examples from my own experience.

A guy was verbally harassing me, and progressed to throwing rubbers at me, then threw a shoe at me, and finally came over to where I was reading a book, and tore one of the pages. I jumped over the table and kicked him in the chest, and punched him in the face. He didn't do it again.

A guy was behind me on the school bus, and he always shouted insults at me which I ignored. Then he sat behind me and started pulling my hair. I turned round and punched him in the face. I got told off by my head teacher, because *they* had reported *me* for hitting him. They stopped bullying me.

A guy kept bullying one of my friends. He was a weedy kinda guy, so he didn't think he could stand up to the bully. One day he told me that the bully had shoved him into some lockers, and pinned him there. I went up to the bully and said "Stop hurting my friend. Now." He sneered and said something like "What are you gonna do about it?" I punched him in the nose, kicked him in the stomach and put an elbow in his temple. He stopped bullying my friend.

Bear in mind that I am only outlining my life experiences. Not prescribing actions for situations I know nothing about. There can be no generic solution to bullying.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
Achieving a means through acts of non-violence is a sign of pure sophistication.

Please send food!

Posted: 26th Oct 2005

Written by: Munkustrap

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Achieving a means through acts of non-violence is a sign of pure sophistication.

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I beg to differ.

Me, I'm a thoruoghly sophisticated chap. Hell, you just need to ehar my posh accent to figure that much out

*but* Iwas bullied. A lot. I got pushed over the edge, and for about an hour, I became quite an umnpleasant person.

Violent to the nth degree. I took a hockey stick to someone. (not hard mine, more of a warning). I got left well alone.

Whilst I'm anything but proud of what I did (I don't like to be violent at all ) those who messed with me stopped. Simple.

But this is all a tad

Point is, the school I go ot is full of a *lot* of boys whose parents are quite wealthy. Expulison doesnt put them off, so why should a little fine?

Just thought I'd throw in the opposite part of the scale

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 26th Oct 2005
Bullying keeps up in the workplace and at home as well.

I find a fine line when I am dealing with kids. Workplace and relationship bullying is the pits as well. Can be very insidious. I wonder if these people were biullies at school as well.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Posted: 27th Oct 2005
Not sure if this is on topic/relevant, and its of epic eyebleeder proportions, but



from tafe (technical college) today:



First off, a bit of background on the situation, then the situation itself...



We're doing automotive this week. putting engines together and all that. The engine my group was working on had a lot of stuff missing, so we grabbed it from the engine of the team that had finished, and been signed off for.



Now, that's probably not the smartest thing i've ever done. but, i'm in this course for me, so i can get it finished, and so i can get the best marks i can, not to make people smiley and happy and warm feeling. More on that attitude later, probably in a different thread.



Anyhoo, one of the people who'd worked on that engine started insulting me about it, and took it to a point way beyond any reasonable length. A bit of friendly ribbing, sure, i can handle that, but there's a limit.



That limit got hit today. I was working on the engine i'd been assigned, the other guy (i'll call him bob, cos thats easier than saying 'the other guy' all the time) was fiddling around generally doing nothing, from what i could see. He made a comment about how i'd taken parts from all sorts of other engines (including some completely unrelated - the auto section has about 20 motors in frames). I looked up at him and said 'you're just going to keep going on about that, aren't you?' he replied affirmatively, then called me a faggot.



now, i know that no number of name calling is going to make me homosexual, but at that point i'd had enough, so i retaliated, using thebest wit i could at the time, that being 'And what does my sexuality have to do with anything?'



He requested closer proximity for a repeat of the remark (Why don't you come here and say that?), so, in the best passive/nonagressive/vulnerable posture i could think of (hands at the sides, wrists facing out), i walked towards him, again asking exactly what my sexulity had to do with engine parts.



By the time i'd finished speaking, we were within arm's reach of each other, as i found out when bob shoved me in the chest with both hands. This wasn't quite what i expected - the response i thought of was a fist coming towards me. Anyhoo, as i got pushed backward, i was already turning, to head to the student services officer, putting a complaint in against him.



Both sexual harassment and physical assault are his crimes, and the head of that wing of tafe looks kindly upon neither. So bob's going to get a very severe verbal bollocking, and that might be the end of it.



Hindsight says to me that in that situation, upon getting shoved, i had three options, and i'm pretty sure i'm well within my rights to all of them:

1. Knee him in the balls then sink a knee into his face as he curls up. (reasonable self defence measures - i couldn't be sure if he was going to continue fighting or not, so i had to ensure he didn't. No weapons, cos i couldnt see him with one, though there were all manners of spanners etc around the place.



2. Get all behavioural sciency at him, and start talking about what he must be lacking to force him to resort to a self esteem raising insult session, laced with a good bout of homophobia, and possibly some 'parent's boy' syndrome.



3. Do what i did, entirely 100% legal, possibly not effective as the first, probably more so than the second, but it'll be getting even, not mad. I was well within my rights to demand immediate expulsion without credit, and probably could have pulled that off, but for the first time, i'm not too worried.



I'm going to register the occurance with the police tomorrow, not pressing charges, but offically citing that it's happened. If it happens again, i'm going to get the book thrown at him, but i'll cross that bridge when i get there.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 27th Oct 2005

Written by: Munkustrap

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Achieving a means through acts of non-violence is a sign of pure sophistication.

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Fine, be as sophisticated as you want. It won't help when you're being kicked in the head.

And I disagree, sophistication requires intelligence, and one of the most important things for that is assessing how to solve a problem. If the solution requires carefully applied violence then so be it. There are some situations that can't be solved without it.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 27th Oct 2005
Very interesting and controversial thread!

I may be very naive about this, but doesn't a happy home make a happy kid? And a happy kid will be interested in other kids (in a good way). So when my daughter gets to school in a couple of years, I would certainly not expect for her to be involved in antisocial behaviour like this. Other humans are here to be respected, whatever your differences.

My personal opinion is to agree with the parents to be fined - yes, I realise that some of you do think that it is harsh, but don't you think that it is harsh that innocent and happy people have to bear other peoples insecurities and bad behaviour?

If a child is behaving in a disrespectful manner at school, you can't tell me that they will be angels at home. I can't help but think that the parents have a certain amount of disrespect for those around them, and have (maybe unwillingly) brought their kids up to subconciously think this way also.

My brother was a beautiful, gentle person who suffered from a spate of bullying at work. He had bolts thrown at him by (oops - sorry, no respect here!), but he helped others to get through difficult times, as he was absolutely selfless.

I just think that he was above and beyond those people and that he left us for a higher purpose (car accident 2003) R.I.P. Steve

There is my rant

I love HOT chillies!

*me: Guess what? I'm learning how to eat fire!
*husband: well, you do love hot food.....