Forums > Social Discussion > Crime rate in schools.

Posted: 3rd May 2006
I'm not sure of the cause, but I sure as hell hope it cools down sometime in the next 4 years... I'm going into secondary school teaching after I've done teacher training.

Here's to hoping I don't get bleach in the face

Battle Royale is looking better and better

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 3rd May 2006
I blame Mtv

I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.

Posted: 3rd May 2006
Exciting... I really don't know what causes people to be like this. Or what can be done. But we need to come up with something....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 4th May 2006
A Kiwi lady that I know who is working as a fill in teacher here in London told me that on her very first day working in London a kid punched her in the face for giving the class homework....

Scary!

Lack of discipline at home I think has a bit to do with it. Also the fact that teacher have no rights when it comes to punishing students for bad behaviour either so the kids just don't learn to respect authority.

Posted: 4th May 2006
i think lack of discipline all around from the school,parents and community ie police
i am a student doing senior years in a public school in australia ive been to 2 high schools and the one im at now is very strict and have strong punishments but still the othere week a boy in year 9 decided to tackle a boy in year 11 and it broke his femur this boy had to go to hospital but the boy who had tackled got expelled no questions asked in this situation all us students came together an supported the boy who was hurt.
children today seem to lack respect for any one even themselves the things i have heard come out of students mouths are apaulling ive seen teachers be in tears and the class just laugh no feelings no respect i think its horrible seeing what the youth is comeing to unfortunatly i dont understand why but something definatly needs to be done and SOON!!!!

look inside yourself for YOUR answers

Posted: 4th May 2006
What's going to happen to said expelled kid? Beign expelled from a school for violence is a sure fire way to screw up the rest of your life.

For a tackle? Sure, that's fair...

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 4th May 2006
I teach not far from Edinburgh.

We have had security cameras in the playground since before I started teaching (4 years ago). Kids keep breaking them.

Violence, bad behaviour and abuse directed at both pupils and teachers have increased markedly in the past 4 years. As teachers, we are at a complete loss as to how to tackle this. We are virtually powerless. Pupils almost have more rights than teachers, and they know fine well there's very little we can do about anything they do. This issue comes up at nearly every in service day or staff meeting we have, and still we can't find a solution. The discipline structure keeps being revised, but to no avail. The root of the problem - I feel - is the governments social inclusion policy. There are now no facilities for dealing with 'difficult' or 'behaviourally challenged' pupils. In a normal class environment teachers cannot cope with some of the serious behavioural issues - they have the rest of the class to worry about too.

Over the past year, I have been seriously considering whether I want to continue teaching, unfortunately I am not qualified to do much else - certainly not wothout halving my pay. This would mean abandoning all our life plans - which I don't really want to do. But I don't want to wrok in an environment where I don't feel safe, where I am just waiting for the next confrontation from a pupil. Perhaps in another school it would be better - but I doubt it.

In Scotland, it is virtually impossoble to expel students - they can only be 'excluded' for a period of time.

I have to say, I would not recommend teaching as a career to anyone - particularly with the changes in 'management' structures in Scotland.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

KITTENS!!!!

Posted: 4th May 2006
Bring back the cane. and the strap. and power to those in power. Teachers need to be able to discipline kids - what are they going to be like in a job?

I know that if i smacked one of the guys i worked with, i'd come home much worse for wear. And minus a job.

How can these little %$#&s learn that when they get away with it all the time?

We need to teach them, discipline them. And kicking them out of school isn't the way to do that. Suspending/excluding them isn't either. Sure, belting the crap out of them isn't the best solution in the world, but most of our parents turned out ok, and i bet most of them felt a cane at least once.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 4th May 2006
Yeah I have it on good Authority by my old english teacher that when I left school in 99, our year was the last year of well behaved children (.....well moderatly ).
She has said that children that keep coming up from infants are getting worse behaved by the year to the point wher she is thinkning of quiting teaching because of this.

It's sad to see police at schools n stuff I cant remember any incidents where the police came to my school. LOL I hope my daughter bloody behaves hen she goes

so anyway if u left in 99 we were the last of the good uns

"Do you know what the Phantom is??"
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Posted: 4th May 2006

The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

Posted: 4th May 2006
I kind of blame the legislations that protect children from child abuse. I don't remember being caned as a pupil but I was given a good wallop as a kid by the folks. And I turned out okay(ish)... At that young age, the only thing that kids fear is pain inflicted by an authority figure. Me personally find no wrong in 'reasonable force' but unfortunately I can understand banning it as it is definitely open to abuse

Anyone else feel that comedy TV characters such as Ali G and Vicky Pollard which were intended to be parodies have ended up being role-models to these kids? Pollard's stroppiness and inability to let authority figures get a word in edgeways seems more like a way of life now than an unappealing minority...

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Posted: 4th May 2006
your probably sadly right neon....

and i think lack of disapline is definatly a problem - the classes are getting bigger and more mixed and the kids disapline is going down .. it just gets nastier and nastier

the school i went to was pretty good as far as schools go but even we have CCTV all over the place and the odd cop turn up

i suppose the main problem is that there is nothing that teachers can do - if a kid gets expelled the odds are they'll end up back in the same school anyway. the teachers seem to get very little support because the schools are so afraid of it either reflecting badly on them or getting sued

i think the worst thing is that even the parents wont help the teachers in some cases and will actually tell the kids enough about the law to keep the teacher literally unable to do anything

personnally i think parents should be able to spank their kids - it reminds them whos in charge and while it may be open to abuse i think the current system isn't so much open to abuse as being thourghly destroyed.

ultimatly banning smacking isnt going to stop parents who want to abuse their kids... allowing it may stop the kids abusing the teachers and system that is supposed to help them

back

Posted: 4th May 2006
ive writen quite a bit here, but i would really apritiate it if people would give me feedback on what i have writen.



This is what need to be done. Teachers need to be given back the power and in cases where nessersery, kids need to be caned. a smack across the back of the hands is all it needs to make sure a kid dusnt act out of line again. caning shouldnot be abused tho, only used in nesersery extream cases in the compony of the teacher, head teacher and perhaps parent. kids are not born with disiplene and is a fundemental fact that it needs to be beaten into them, but not in a harsh or abusive way but just enough to show them that if thehy act out of line, they will be punished. kids these days thrive on the fact that they KNOW teachers are powerless to stop them. if teachers regain the power, more teachers will start in that perfesion stoping the teacher shortage. kids these days do not learn respect, and without respect, how can they possibly amount to anything. The same applies to overcrowded prisons.Corperal punisment need to be brot back. for minor crimes like theft, prisnors should be given say a 10day sentance, each day given a good flogging, and by the end of it, theres no way in hell they will want to steal again. the goverment sux and dusnt realise just how simple some situations are to sort out.....



quote roger from american dad "the suffering of men is both nessersery and useful"
EDITED_BY: _Chris_ (1146741867)

Order and pyromancie as one, controlling chaos.
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Posted: 4th May 2006
Chris I was definitely thinking along the lines of a controlled caning where Teacher, Headteacher and Parent was present.



This would serve a number of purposes in that the caning wouldn't be down to one individual's opinion of what is 'reasonable force'.



Also being caned in the presence of the parent would be even more of a deterrant as the kid MAY be less likely to fall out of line again in fear of shaming their parents. This is strictly hypothetical as we don't know what it'd be like if this was introduced AFTER the way kids are used to being brought up these days... For all we know it might create even more of an 'us against them' mentallity within the kids. But honestly I can't imagine it being worse than it is now...

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Posted: 4th May 2006
personally i wouldnt say caning - that hurts a ****lot**** a smack is more controlled

chris i dont agree so much with corporal punishment in prisons - a reduction in how comfy they are but pain systems dont work as well on adults. making the prisons less comfy and using the prisons for hard labour is a good system as is allowing them chances to improve themselves if all someone leaves prison with is a few welts they're not going to change much

back

Posted: 4th May 2006
*imagines the scenario*

given how unlikely it is that the head teacher will have time for all the canings

given how famous parents of the worst-behaved kids are for NOT being where they should be (and causing half the problems by that)

given how unlikely it is that single parents will take all the other smaller kids along for the caning show

I don't think it'll work.

By the way, one of the chav parents would probably snatch the cane out of the teacher's hands and show how it's done properly

There seems to be the general opinion here that all it takes are a few hits and the world will be a better place.

Do you really think caning solves anything? I think you have to make a big big big difference between a few hits in a situation where there already is mutual respect but some cheekiness, like when my parents were caned in school, and a situation we have now, where there is no respect whatsoever. Being hit will NOT make that problem any better, but worse instead, because to the disrespect will come a feeling of hate for public humiliation.

By the way, don't you think that half of the kids with bad behaviour problems get beaten at home? The beating alone doesn't help, it has to be something that a parent does in a controlled way, as part of a mutually respectful and good relationship to their kids. The situation we have now would need to be radically changed BEFORE re-introducing beating as an educational measure. And if it was that fundamentally changed, we wouldn't need the beating up anymore anyways.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Posted: 4th May 2006
nothing like an us against them mentality to unify otherwise ununified kids. i think when the cane got banned its really screwed up the possibility of brinning it back. if i was a teenager at my school and they suddenly brought back the cane i would be very pissed off and insulted, hence the us vrs them would probably make the situation even worse. for example, i remember one day when i was in grade 9 and some idiots from another school thought it would be a good idea to come to ours to find some kid they wanted to beat up. they sure as hell turned tail and ran when they found 400 teenage boys waiting for them. i would've laughed at any teacher trying to control us if the other kids had gotten too close.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 4th May 2006
Damn right Majestik...

I'm just reminiscing about how much better the situation was in those days. (God I feel old)

Kids need to be reasoned with at a VERY young age but the flaw is that kids at that age are unable to listen to reason and are just pure id and emotion. If only parents of supposedly stable family life and child psychologists can band together to exchange tips...

I still blame Vicky Pollard...

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Posted: 4th May 2006

 Written by: Neon_Fowl_in_Marinade


I still blame Vicky Pollard...

i remember my dad telling me when he was at high school (the same one i went to) in the 60's they used to jump on a carriage (the train line is right next to the school) that had kids from a boys private school and brawl with them for about 2 stations.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

Posted: 4th May 2006
If a parent is unable to control a child without using force then they are not equipped to be a parent.

Which is all too often the case.

It makes me sick that parents spend so little time LEARNING how to be parents. Most people will spend more time researching the best car to buy then how to better raise their children.

If a parent is too busy to raise their child, then they shouldn't have had one.
If a parent is not emotionally stable enough to have a child, then they shouldn't have had one.
If a parent can not provide a nurturing environment for a child, then they shouldn't have had one.

But, of course, everyone has a right to have a child. And if you're not willing to put forth the effort then I guess slapping them across the face enough times will probably shut them up, right?

Strong words I know. But I'm like that when it comes to kids.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 4th May 2006
i think NYC tho there is a difference between not having a smack and knowing you wont

when a child knows that somewhere there is boundry that if crossed will get them a smack or at least a heavy time out they know not to push it so much - a lot of kids dont seem to have that and yes it is a shame that the parents dont take the time to raise their kids but if that boundry is placed there at school it can act as a major deterent

back

Posted: 4th May 2006
My father never had to smack me, all he had to do was threaten and I knew he was serious enough that I stopped doing what ever I was doing wrong.

I will never know if he would have gone through with it but I had enough fear of the way he threatened that I would behave.

Posted: 4th May 2006

 Written by: NYC




It makes me sick that parents spend so little time LEARNING how to be parents. Most people will spend more time researching the best car to buy then how to better raise their children.

The most important job in our lives with the least training.

 Written by:

If a parent is too busy to raise their child, then they shouldn't have had one.
If a parent is not emotionally stable enough to have a child, then they shouldn't have had one.
If a parent can not provide a nurturing environment for a child, then they shouldn't have had one.

How do you know what pregancy and child rearing will do to your mind? Should you have to pass puppy training to be allowed a child.

Busy pfffttt. How many sick kids are at school because parents work. How many parents can afford thier lifestyle and not work though.


Parenthood is the hardest thing I have ever done. You cant just say.." Had enough" like you can with most things

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Posted: 4th May 2006
I find schools scary places. Even when I was a kid. Now even more so.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

Posted: 4th May 2006

 Written by: linden rathen



i think NYC tho there is a difference between not having a smack and knowing you wont

I do not believe that the threat of violence is necessary to raise a child. I understand that there are non-ideal circumstances which warrent non-ideal reactions.



What worries me more are parents who immidiately resort to violence or the threat of violence as a disciplinary tool.



"Clean your room or I will smack you. Put the candy back or I will smack you. Wish your Grandmother a happy birthday or I will smack you...."



Then we wonder why there's so much school violence. There is a huge correlation between people that have been abused as children and people that abuse others as adults.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 4th May 2006
NYC



I wholeheartedly agree with you. I wish we shouldn't even be talking about resorting to violence to raise kids and us doing so is a knee jerk reaction to the problem we are having over here. (Hence my earlier post about gathering child psychologists and parents from supposedly well adjusted families to form a guide to parenting)



It's just that the problem of juvenile delinquency isn't so much a problem more a way of life over here. (I'm not sure if its the same over there) The rise of the epidemic just happened to co-incide with the banning of smacking in schools. Its also a bit of a problem when kids ASPIRE to be like this, inspired by the likes of comedy creations which have become something of an institution, which were created to mock them...



This is not a simple problem with an easy solutions, I REALLY do hope that a major solution can be found without having to resort to threats of/actual violence.

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

Posted: 4th May 2006
I don't think that banning corporal punishment in schools is directly related to the behaviour problems. I certainly don't think if we started smacking them again that the problems would stop. There are enough school shootings as it is, I can't imagine how that would change if we started smacking more of them.

This was certainly never a problem before we started admitting women and blacks. I'd hate to see someone start making that correlation.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 4th May 2006

 Written by: TheSilverShadow


so anyway if u left in 99 we were the last of the good uns

I'm 17. I hadn't even started secondry school in 1999


I think it should be up to the parents as to whether or not they use smacking as a disaplinary method for their children.
I don't agree with bringing back the cane, chalk board rubber, or having a hefty book thrown at you. We live in a world that is far to PC to bring back this rule, and I feel all but a few teachers would feel comfortable using corporal punishment against their students.
IMO it is no-ones right, besides your parents to touch you in any disaplinary way.

As Kat said, there is pretty much nothing a teacher can do when confronted by a wayward child. If you grab them and try to control them, then the kid will tell his parents, and the parents will go through the courts saying that the teacher made the first move. You just can't win

And what makes one school differ from another?
Does sub-standard teaching mean sub-standard disapline?

Posted: 4th May 2006
I’m impressed by the amount of replies thank you.



There’s a lot of good points well made.



My way to fix the school system, by Chris Bishop.



i really see what you mean about the "us vs them mentality" and i agree. After reading your comments, i really doubt that the introduction of any kind of physical punishment into secondary school will do any good at all. i agree that many (primarily the chav population of public schools) will rebel and things may get very violent and worse.



Instead, physical punishment, in the presence of teacher, headmaster and mother, should be introduced into primary schools. Now im NOT about beating kids. Any punishment should be of the lightest touch, there only young, but I remember once my mum slapped me over the back of my hand any you know, i was better for it, it scared me. Now in younger children, the "us vs them" mentality will not yet be forming. In the cases of bad behaviour, as said, a slap on the wrist is all is needed in schools with the presence of mum, teacher, head teacher and with aproval from each that its right. Even the presense of a childed sycologyt to professally say it is the rite cause of disiplene But physical punishment should only be administered on kids that fall really out of place. You know the kinds, the kids that kids that bully or abuse or take a pen (a pen now what later) , you know what i mean. This will teach kids at the crucial early age the respect that is necessary. The threat of violance is a very good idea, and physical displine given only when absolutly nesrry.



the introduction of the rules regarding disiple would have to be reintroduced slowly. introducing eg, into year 4 primary school (the year kids go from lower youner school into higher youner school) and should then follow that year of class, introducing the new rules in to year 5, then year 6, then after 3 years slowly introduced into secontardy school. if necerry, light physcal force on lower youner school kids may also be neserseryy from time to time. kids will learn more naturally to behave.



Instead, punishment should be the LESSER FOCUS. If a greater focus was made on getting kids to have fun and just enjoy school, perhaps we wouldn’t get problems to start with.



Here’s a prime example.



me, seye an his house mate (sorry if you read this i cant remember your name mate) were at this mini festival in Manchester. some young kids, young chavs came up to us, were trying to act hard and look like stone like chavs do, but we got talking to them, we let them have a go on some of our toys, and they ended up having a good time, said thankyou, learnt respect without punishment. We may have shown thos kids something really good that day. Later, some older chavs came up to, we tried talking to them, let them have ago on our toys (under a very watchful eye i mite add) and when we had to move they started to kick up a fuss and started abuse. You know how they are.



our toys should get into primary schools and kids would have fun and there would be a considerable change for the better in there behaviour, from the early age. there will always be bad kids who step out of line at school, and only those who deserve it should receive physical punishment.



I will also say the punishment, physical but of a light touch should start from the earliest age. Punishment administerd by the mother. Not hitting or beating but just a smack or slap on wrist. Even Mothers should be provided with basic information on how to properly administer discipline. Simple pamphlets for example. It cant be intrusive or else some mothers will make a fuss saying “don’t tell me how to raise my kids” you know. But basic simple informative information should be available.



By introducing punishment into primary schools, we should be able to phase out the chav population in no more that a decade or two. For the time being, there is little we can do about there comunity, may well just have to weight it out L



I realise as well that people from all over the globe read these forums. i only really know of problems with the school system here in the UK. i know that chavs are a typically british bad thing. i doubt everywhere has a chav problem. Thanks for reading.
EDITED_BY: _Chris_ (1146777310)

Order and pyromancie as one, controlling chaos.
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Posted: 4th May 2006
BRING BACK NATIONAL SIRVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!