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Forums > Social Discussion > U.S. Soldier refuses to go to war
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
https://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs19056
It's fascinating.
It's about time.
I am forced to wonder if more stood up this way, if this one would not go to prison.
I feel he is executing his constitutional rights and that is being ignored because he is a soldier and the belief that when they take their oath they cease to be right protected citizens is at play.
They can defend it but they can not take part in it.
I wish there was something to do but I'm not sure what.
Herm.
https://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs19056
It's fascinating.
It's about time.
I am forced to wonder if more stood up this way, if this one would not go to prison.
I feel he is executing his constitutional rights and that is being ignored because he is a soldier and the belief that when they take their oath they cease to be right protected citizens is at play.
They can defend it but they can not take part in it.
I wish there was something to do but I'm not sure what.
Herm.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
there was a recent-ish case of a US soldier seeking refuge in canada cos he refused to fight and by law he can be executed
there was a recent-ish case of a US soldier seeking refuge in canada cos he refused to fight and by law he can be executed
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
"Deserters" here don't get executed Rougie. I don't know where it said that, but it has not been formally true since the Revolution. However, federal law here does not support execution for desertion.
And I know Canada won't execute him.
He will be extradited back to the US to stand trial.
(I know what you are refering to)
However, if found guilty they can face life charges in Levinworth Military Prison, which could make you wish for death, for certain.
I give this one alot of credit. He is staying in his job, just standing his ground.
"Deserters" here don't get executed Rougie. I don't know where it said that, but it has not been formally true since the Revolution. However, federal law here does not support execution for desertion.
And I know Canada won't execute him.
He will be extradited back to the US to stand trial.
(I know what you are refering to)
However, if found guilty they can face life charges in Levinworth Military Prison, which could make you wish for death, for certain.
I give this one alot of credit. He is staying in his job, just standing his ground.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
enthusiast
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Posted:
Very interesting! It can't be easy for someone in the military to take that kind of stand. He seems to be an intelligent, articulate man, looking to serve his country, and on recognition of some of the basic facts of the war in Iraq, he's realised that serving in Iraq is not serving the American people.
That takes an amazing amount of courage - it is a high price to pay for taking a stand. America should be proud.
Very interesting! It can't be easy for someone in the military to take that kind of stand. He seems to be an intelligent, articulate man, looking to serve his country, and on recognition of some of the basic facts of the war in Iraq, he's realised that serving in Iraq is not serving the American people.
That takes an amazing amount of courage - it is a high price to pay for taking a stand. America should be proud.
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Wonderloey, I completely agree.
I think he goes into my "heroes" list.
Wonderloey, I completely agree.
I think he goes into my "heroes" list.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Me too. He has my respect.
Me too. He has my respect.
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Confusion re 'execution' comes from Pele writing in her original post that this soldier is *executing* his rights rather than *exercising* them.
Written by: Pele
"Deserters" here don't get executed Rougie. I don't know where it said that, but it has not been formally true since the Revolution.
Confusion re 'execution' comes from Pele writing in her original post that this soldier is *executing* his rights rather than *exercising* them.
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
GOLD Member
Sneaking
1,207 posts
Location: Free falling through time, United Kingdom
Sneaking
1,207 posts
Location: Free falling through time, United Kingdom
Posted:
Good on him I say. I feel that more soldiers in the U.S army probably feel the same way, but haven't worked up enough courage to make a stand. It takes a lot of guts to stand alone against the military, so to see people calling him a coward is appalling, if they can't understand what a man believes, even if they don't agree, they should respect him for standing up for what he beleives in.
Good on him I say. I feel that more soldiers in the U.S army probably feel the same way, but haven't worked up enough courage to make a stand. It takes a lot of guts to stand alone against the military, so to see people calling him a coward is appalling, if they can't understand what a man believes, even if they don't agree, they should respect him for standing up for what he beleives in.
Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you land among the stars
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
ah, not it's not! i know exactly what is being said! i was just under the understanding that although it has not been done since the revolution, it is still actually a law. all you need to do is read the thread in chat to know there are ancient laws still in existance that arent enforced.
Written by: newgabeWritten by: Pele
"Deserters" here don't get executed Rougie. I don't know where it said that, but it has not been formally true since the Revolution.
Confusion re 'execution' comes from Pele writing in her original post that this soldier is *executing* his rights rather than *exercising* them.
ah, not it's not! i know exactly what is being said! i was just under the understanding that although it has not been done since the revolution, it is still actually a law. all you need to do is read the thread in chat to know there are ancient laws still in existance that arent enforced.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
i don't blame him for refusing to go to iraq, ok he's on the army ay roll but look at what happend after vietnam when soldiers returned home with post trumatic stress dissorder, it's even happening now with soldiers returning from iraq.....................dose the army pay for them to see a shrink???
well they only pay for so much treatment.
people may shunn this soldier but how can ANYBODY describe the horrors of war, how can they get over it and move on???
as an employer the military should be held accountable for the welfare and well being of it's employees nd as is many cases this is not so therefore i believe this soldier is within his rights to say no
i don't blame him for refusing to go to iraq, ok he's on the army ay roll but look at what happend after vietnam when soldiers returned home with post trumatic stress dissorder, it's even happening now with soldiers returning from iraq.....................dose the army pay for them to see a shrink???
well they only pay for so much treatment.
people may shunn this soldier but how can ANYBODY describe the horrors of war, how can they get over it and move on???
as an employer the military should be held accountable for the welfare and well being of it's employees nd as is many cases this is not so therefore i believe this soldier is within his rights to say no
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Vietnam was also conscripted. And the post traumatic stress of Vietnam was widely known when this guy signed up. I don't think you can compare in the slightest.
Vietnam was also conscripted. And the post traumatic stress of Vietnam was widely known when this guy signed up. I don't think you can compare in the slightest.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
However, it is still false that he will be.
In Rhode Island it is "illegal" to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket on a Sunday.
In Arkansas is it illegal to say it "Ar-Kansas"
There are tonnes of "ancient" laws in effect globally but it doesn't mean they could be called back up at a whim. Once a law has fallen out of use, it is actually more problematic to bring it back to life than it is to just let it go.
Which means again, there is *no* possibility of him being executed because the current laws surrounding executions as well as those of military deserters supercede any old ones.
The US has enough bad publicity without myths and out of date information being called into play, and as such I am sad that any journalist would write that.
Back to the current one... I wonder if there is anything we can do...letter write or something. Really, the more I think about it, the more angry I get. I hadn't realized that in joining the military meant giving up all your rights.
I've been talking about this with my 11 year old boy, and it's been a wonderful lesson for him in strength as well.
Point_Blank, there have been so many soldiers who have been interviewed, including those already deployed, who feel this way. The hope is that more will come forward and stand with this one. At least the ones who are speaking out aren't being held for treason. That's a step in the right direction, a baby step but a step.
Written by: Rouge DragonWritten by: newgabeWritten by: Pele
"Deserters" here don't get executed Rougie. I don't know where it said that, but it has not been formally true since the Revolution.
Confusion re 'execution' comes from Pele writing in her original post that this soldier is *executing* his rights rather than *exercising* them.
ah, not it's not! i know exactly what is being said! i was just under the understanding that although it has not been done since the revolution, it is still actually a law. all you need to do is read the thread in chat to know there are ancient laws still in existance that arent enforced.
However, it is still false that he will be.
In Rhode Island it is "illegal" to carry an ice cream cone in your back pocket on a Sunday.
In Arkansas is it illegal to say it "Ar-Kansas"
There are tonnes of "ancient" laws in effect globally but it doesn't mean they could be called back up at a whim. Once a law has fallen out of use, it is actually more problematic to bring it back to life than it is to just let it go.
Which means again, there is *no* possibility of him being executed because the current laws surrounding executions as well as those of military deserters supercede any old ones.
The US has enough bad publicity without myths and out of date information being called into play, and as such I am sad that any journalist would write that.
Back to the current one... I wonder if there is anything we can do...letter write or something. Really, the more I think about it, the more angry I get. I hadn't realized that in joining the military meant giving up all your rights.
I've been talking about this with my 11 year old boy, and it's been a wonderful lesson for him in strength as well.
Point_Blank, there have been so many soldiers who have been interviewed, including those already deployed, who feel this way. The hope is that more will come forward and stand with this one. At least the ones who are speaking out aren't being held for treason. That's a step in the right direction, a baby step but a step.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
yes i know that. but im refering to an incident as was reported in australian newspapers. you told me already it was false and i was wrong, please dont rub it in, i was merely correcting gabe's misunderstanding of my apparent misunderstaning.
yes i know that. but im refering to an incident as was reported in australian newspapers. you told me already it was false and i was wrong, please dont rub it in, i was merely correcting gabe's misunderstanding of my apparent misunderstaning.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
oh and i NEVER said i thought he would actually be executed either. i was merely talking from a legal point of view that some laws still exist in books, still relevant or not. and THATS how it was reported. and THATS how the man in question was trying to exploit the system - from the articles i was following!
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1168004573)
oh and i NEVER said i thought he would actually be executed either. i was merely talking from a legal point of view that some laws still exist in books, still relevant or not. and THATS how it was reported. and THATS how the man in question was trying to exploit the system - from the articles i was following!
EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1168004573)
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
it's long so i scanned
first, he joined the army after the invasion. wmd or no, the situation was continually getting worse. the un was getting the run around and everyone was too chicken to do anything for global politeness...
he signed a contract. and just because there are no wmd doesn't mean that there isn't a purpose there. you're in the military objectives and information changes. part of the military is the brotherhood...so you are going to endanger your brothers by saying, i don't know the purpose so i don't want to go...how old are you, four?
but then if he did go and he was an objector, he would put the other soldiers in danger because he wouldn't want to be there-so i suppose it is just as well that he sits on base...
it's long so i scanned
first, he joined the army after the invasion. wmd or no, the situation was continually getting worse. the un was getting the run around and everyone was too chicken to do anything for global politeness...
he signed a contract. and just because there are no wmd doesn't mean that there isn't a purpose there. you're in the military objectives and information changes. part of the military is the brotherhood...so you are going to endanger your brothers by saying, i don't know the purpose so i don't want to go...how old are you, four?
but then if he did go and he was an objector, he would put the other soldiers in danger because he wouldn't want to be there-so i suppose it is just as well that he sits on base...
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Rougie, I'm not rubbing it, I am discussing what has been put here, not just by you but by others as well. I am saying that I feel that the Australian media put that into an article in an attempt to add to the negativity against the US. If we know this is a dead law then I think it was irresponsible journalism for the journalist to even include it in.
I even cited a couple of silly ones (I love the ice cream one).
faith, perhaps you should have read it then. It really is a worthwhile read. He also said that when he first signed up for the military it *was* for a purpose and that he, like many americans, feel that ongoing nature of this war is full of excuses and has been continually misrepresented (which is has). This article shows a man who shows a maturity well beyond 4 and has educated himself about this war in order to make this decision, and to only scan the article and make a snap judgement about him being immature and equating him to a 4 year old only does this discussion, yourself or him a dis-service.
Rougie, I'm not rubbing it, I am discussing what has been put here, not just by you but by others as well. I am saying that I feel that the Australian media put that into an article in an attempt to add to the negativity against the US. If we know this is a dead law then I think it was irresponsible journalism for the journalist to even include it in.
I even cited a couple of silly ones (I love the ice cream one).
faith, perhaps you should have read it then. It really is a worthwhile read. He also said that when he first signed up for the military it *was* for a purpose and that he, like many americans, feel that ongoing nature of this war is full of excuses and has been continually misrepresented (which is has). This article shows a man who shows a maturity well beyond 4 and has educated himself about this war in order to make this decision, and to only scan the article and make a snap judgement about him being immature and equating him to a 4 year old only does this discussion, yourself or him a dis-service.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
newbie
18 posts
Location: England (UK)
newbie
18 posts
Location: England (UK)
Posted:
His objection wasn't that there was no purpose, his objection is that the war is illegal and the justification that the US government gave that convinced alot of people (him included) that is was neccesary turned out to be a lie.
Being contracted to do something that turns out illegal and then refusing to do it knowing full well that he will probably be crucified (metaphorically) by the military and government takes alot of balls.
Written by: faithinfire
he signed a contract. and just because there are no wmd doesn't mean that there isn't a purpose there.
His objection wasn't that there was no purpose, his objection is that the war is illegal and the justification that the US government gave that convinced alot of people (him included) that is was neccesary turned out to be a lie.
Being contracted to do something that turns out illegal and then refusing to do it knowing full well that he will probably be crucified (metaphorically) by the military and government takes alot of balls.
/*********************************************
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All your base are belong to us! *
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My mother advises not to stand on the dryer whilst drunk
43 posts
Location: 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA
43 posts
Location: 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA
Posted:
I read once, although it seems to be lost now, a list of interesting/humorous failed constitutional amendments, and one read:
"In the event of a war, a referendum would be held-and those voting for war would be conscripted into the military and sent to war"
....or something along those lines. Although it's not really relevant to this Lt.'s situation-I just thought it would be of interest to bring up.
Why don't we have referendums when it comes to declaring war (I mean, even in Canada). I know there expensive, but I would think war's just gotta be a tad bit more expensive....?
*Sorry didn't mean to get off subject....Must have lost my ritalin again....hey, look a kitty....
I read once, although it seems to be lost now, a list of interesting/humorous failed constitutional amendments, and one read:
"In the event of a war, a referendum would be held-and those voting for war would be conscripted into the military and sent to war"
....or something along those lines. Although it's not really relevant to this Lt.'s situation-I just thought it would be of interest to bring up.
Why don't we have referendums when it comes to declaring war (I mean, even in Canada). I know there expensive, but I would think war's just gotta be a tad bit more expensive....?
*Sorry didn't mean to get off subject....Must have lost my ritalin again....hey, look a kitty....
BRONZE Member
newbie
18 posts
Location: England (UK)
newbie
18 posts
Location: England (UK)
Posted:
lol, I like that.
There was alot of talk of there being a referendum over here (in britain) but obviously it never happened (cos it looked liek it would probabaly not have gone in favour!). Gotta love democracy, we're free to say what we like, n the government is free to not take a blind bit of notice.
Written by: sassy
"In the event of a war, a referendum would be held-and those voting for war would be conscripted into the military and sent to war"
lol, I like that.
There was alot of talk of there being a referendum over here (in britain) but obviously it never happened (cos it looked liek it would probabaly not have gone in favour!). Gotta love democracy, we're free to say what we like, n the government is free to not take a blind bit of notice.
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BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Faith: Just so you know. You have support here
Pele: the Australian media weren't reporting anything irresponsibly and "American Bashing" if the guy is trying to exploit is own country.
Faith: Just so you know. You have support here
Pele: the Australian media weren't reporting anything irresponsibly and "American Bashing" if the guy is trying to exploit is own country.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
ok i misspoke
it is a purpose he doesn't agree on
things change and in the military things change on a minute by minute basis
ok i misspoke
it is a purpose he doesn't agree on
things change and in the military things change on a minute by minute basis
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
PLATINUM Member
Burinating the village like Trogdor
156 posts
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand
Burinating the village like Trogdor
156 posts
Location: West Auck, NZ, New Zealand
Posted:
Your information comes from where? I respond to this part only as i know by fact what the NZDF does, and can only assume (given they have a stack load more $$ to go around) the US Army does the same
The NZDF has it's own, uniformed psychologists, and chaplains, as well as paying for any drugs or external pyscological services required. A person can not undergo a normal release from service untill they are physically, dentally, and medically fit. If they don't adhere to all of the above then they get a whopping big payout, and as has happened in the past, they can sue their previous employer for damages caused to themselves.
The thing is, he is not within his rights. When you sign up you literally sign your life away, in my case, if the Queen (or representitive therof) says go to Iraq and get yourself killed, then i must go or face court marshall, i know this now, and knew this when i signed. as with any law, lack of knowledge does not protect you from prosecution, otherwise we'd all conveniantly know nothing about speeding laws on roads now wouldnt we?
In the olden days the milatary was pretty slack on looking after servicepersons, look at vietnam and agent orange, its only now after maps of the spray paths have been provided, the NZ govt. has actually admited to, apoligized and offer compensation for it in vietnam.
The decision on wether the war is right is not (in regards to military support) his (or mine) to make, if he disagreed he should have released himself from service rather than waiting to told to go and saying no. Hes made himself in to a martyr i guess.
I've been to some dodgy places, that have had nothing to do with protecting NZ (having said that other than WWI/II when were we last threataned anyway..?) But i go, becuase i am ordered to, and becuase i believe those who we protect and serve, though not NZ citizens need, and deserve the help.
Admitedly the war on Iraq/terrorism seems a bit dodgy, but the thing is this. what do WE know, what doesn anyone, actually know, i think its safe to assume that 98% of everyones "knowledge" on the subject of this war, in this post, is based on media coverage, paper, radio or television. Even if the media is using the information obtained from a servicman in iraq, its still via media, only that serviceman, and the person who held the interveiw truly knows the context of that interveiw.
Im sure at least half of us here can attest to the power of the media to take any story and tell it how 'they' want to tell. they twist, tweak, and modify things to suit their own personal vendettas and the ratings. Or they bow to govermental pressure.
Who really knows what is going on, other than president bush and military intelligence, imo though, if the only people who know the full story are the US president, and US intelligence, things don't look so good.
/end rant.
EDIT: Somthing just came to mind. which discounts a lot of what i said, if this law does end up being proved as contrary to geneva and illegal (eg. the germans final solution) then there could be a lot of people sent to trial over it, including the US president... shocking shocking.
Something i also know as a servicman, is both giving, and following an unlawful command is an offence.
Lets say im ordered to shoot someone who has thrown down their weapon and is running away, i know that it is against LOAC to do so. Now if i carry out the order im open to prosecution, if i dont carry out the order (in wartime failure to carry out an order can mean on the spot execution for mutiny) i'm threatend with being shot. The right thing to do, is to be shot. wicked cool huh?
Written by: ravehead
... it's even happening now with soldiers returning from iraq.....................dose the army pay for them to see a shrink???
well they only pay for so much treatment.
Your information comes from where? I respond to this part only as i know by fact what the NZDF does, and can only assume (given they have a stack load more $$ to go around) the US Army does the same
The NZDF has it's own, uniformed psychologists, and chaplains, as well as paying for any drugs or external pyscological services required. A person can not undergo a normal release from service untill they are physically, dentally, and medically fit. If they don't adhere to all of the above then they get a whopping big payout, and as has happened in the past, they can sue their previous employer for damages caused to themselves.
Written by: ravehead
as an employer the military should be held accountable for the welfare and well being of it's employees nd as is many cases this is not so therefore i believe this soldier is within his rights to say no
The thing is, he is not within his rights. When you sign up you literally sign your life away, in my case, if the Queen (or representitive therof) says go to Iraq and get yourself killed, then i must go or face court marshall, i know this now, and knew this when i signed. as with any law, lack of knowledge does not protect you from prosecution, otherwise we'd all conveniantly know nothing about speeding laws on roads now wouldnt we?
In the olden days the milatary was pretty slack on looking after servicepersons, look at vietnam and agent orange, its only now after maps of the spray paths have been provided, the NZ govt. has actually admited to, apoligized and offer compensation for it in vietnam.
The decision on wether the war is right is not (in regards to military support) his (or mine) to make, if he disagreed he should have released himself from service rather than waiting to told to go and saying no. Hes made himself in to a martyr i guess.
I've been to some dodgy places, that have had nothing to do with protecting NZ (having said that other than WWI/II when were we last threataned anyway..?) But i go, becuase i am ordered to, and becuase i believe those who we protect and serve, though not NZ citizens need, and deserve the help.
Admitedly the war on Iraq/terrorism seems a bit dodgy, but the thing is this. what do WE know, what doesn anyone, actually know, i think its safe to assume that 98% of everyones "knowledge" on the subject of this war, in this post, is based on media coverage, paper, radio or television. Even if the media is using the information obtained from a servicman in iraq, its still via media, only that serviceman, and the person who held the interveiw truly knows the context of that interveiw.
Im sure at least half of us here can attest to the power of the media to take any story and tell it how 'they' want to tell. they twist, tweak, and modify things to suit their own personal vendettas and the ratings. Or they bow to govermental pressure.
Who really knows what is going on, other than president bush and military intelligence, imo though, if the only people who know the full story are the US president, and US intelligence, things don't look so good.
/end rant.
EDIT: Somthing just came to mind. which discounts a lot of what i said, if this law does end up being proved as contrary to geneva and illegal (eg. the germans final solution) then there could be a lot of people sent to trial over it, including the US president... shocking shocking.
Something i also know as a servicman, is both giving, and following an unlawful command is an offence.
Lets say im ordered to shoot someone who has thrown down their weapon and is running away, i know that it is against LOAC to do so. Now if i carry out the order im open to prosecution, if i dont carry out the order (in wartime failure to carry out an order can mean on the spot execution for mutiny) i'm threatend with being shot. The right thing to do, is to be shot. wicked cool huh?
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries.
- A.A. Milne
Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!
- Anon (I think)
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
i heard of a person who did that, they just told him shut up sit down and stay out of the way till they got back to base
when they got back there was a courtmartial thing.
heard rumors that some of the deaths of the soldiers are "friendly"
the information we have is not the same as the information the military gets
i heard of a person who did that, they just told him shut up sit down and stay out of the way till they got back to base
when they got back there was a courtmartial thing.
heard rumors that some of the deaths of the soldiers are "friendly"
the information we have is not the same as the information the military gets
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
A newsdoc was just released last month following the lives of three of the soldiers who returned home to the US recently for three months. It's aired several times on MTV, some news stations and I believe one of the major networks here.
One of the young men (and by this I mean all of them were in their early 20's) lost both of his legs. He is mortified that everyone is calling him a hero when he drove a jeep over a landmine. He says he did nothing at all to deserve that title, yet people are doting on him and he still can't find a job or get anything other than celebration or pity from people. He said he feels like he is slowly going mad and doesn't know who to talk to about it. In the 6th month update it said he was giving speeches and talks to the community to try to get them understand what it's like.
The next young man came home to a wife he married before he left and a baby he wasn't around to see being born. He was trying to find a job as security and no one would hire him. He had a fierce temper that everyone insisted was not as bad before he left, himself included. He was edgy and tempermental and preferred being left alone. He was good with the baby though but the adjustment to being back was really painful for him. They did a 6 month update at the end of the show, he was still having issues finding a job.
He went in as infantry hoping to get a skill. He enlisted, he was deployed and then he was honorably discharged without really receiving training.
The third went through the "packet" they give you when you are discharged. It's all about how to return back to the real world. He did everything he was told to and still ended up living on friends couches, unable to get a job and in general figure out a way to put his life together, he continued a drinking binge he started in Iraq. In the update he found a job and was living with a friend but was not doing well.
And this was all after a psych evaluation saying they were all fine to come home.
I was also shown by a friend and I read that those eligible for the GI Bill (tuition assistance) when they come home are having to wait for the war to be over for funds to become available. I don't know if this is true, but I know what I read in the letter he was given.
After Desert Storm under the first Bush, I had two friends come home. One had to go through much more therapy than was allowed by the military allowance. It took him years to recover, and then go through school. He's doing very well now but it took years for him and he and his wife nearly got divorced in the process. It was horrible.
The other went through the military offered therapy and came out wanting to commit suicide and ended up drinking like a fish to cope. It is not always an answer. Family, friends, a dr. and some temporary meds helped him get through it. I actually have no idea where he is now.
So yes, ravehead is completely right on what is happening already.
Written by: cpjfoxWritten by: ravehead
... it's even happening now with soldiers returning from iraq.....................dose the army pay for them to see a shrink???
well they only pay for so much treatment.
Your information comes from where?
A newsdoc was just released last month following the lives of three of the soldiers who returned home to the US recently for three months. It's aired several times on MTV, some news stations and I believe one of the major networks here.
One of the young men (and by this I mean all of them were in their early 20's) lost both of his legs. He is mortified that everyone is calling him a hero when he drove a jeep over a landmine. He says he did nothing at all to deserve that title, yet people are doting on him and he still can't find a job or get anything other than celebration or pity from people. He said he feels like he is slowly going mad and doesn't know who to talk to about it. In the 6th month update it said he was giving speeches and talks to the community to try to get them understand what it's like.
The next young man came home to a wife he married before he left and a baby he wasn't around to see being born. He was trying to find a job as security and no one would hire him. He had a fierce temper that everyone insisted was not as bad before he left, himself included. He was edgy and tempermental and preferred being left alone. He was good with the baby though but the adjustment to being back was really painful for him. They did a 6 month update at the end of the show, he was still having issues finding a job.
He went in as infantry hoping to get a skill. He enlisted, he was deployed and then he was honorably discharged without really receiving training.
The third went through the "packet" they give you when you are discharged. It's all about how to return back to the real world. He did everything he was told to and still ended up living on friends couches, unable to get a job and in general figure out a way to put his life together, he continued a drinking binge he started in Iraq. In the update he found a job and was living with a friend but was not doing well.
And this was all after a psych evaluation saying they were all fine to come home.
I was also shown by a friend and I read that those eligible for the GI Bill (tuition assistance) when they come home are having to wait for the war to be over for funds to become available. I don't know if this is true, but I know what I read in the letter he was given.
After Desert Storm under the first Bush, I had two friends come home. One had to go through much more therapy than was allowed by the military allowance. It took him years to recover, and then go through school. He's doing very well now but it took years for him and he and his wife nearly got divorced in the process. It was horrible.
The other went through the military offered therapy and came out wanting to commit suicide and ended up drinking like a fish to cope. It is not always an answer. Family, friends, a dr. and some temporary meds helped him get through it. I actually have no idea where he is now.
So yes, ravehead is completely right on what is happening already.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
my friends who have come back say the mental health is covered just fine
of course they are having problems adjusting. this is a completely different world where people are not trying to kill them
local VA's are doing a fantastic job with rehabs
my friends who have come back say the mental health is covered just fine
of course they are having problems adjusting. this is a completely different world where people are not trying to kill them
local VA's are doing a fantastic job with rehabs
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I would never have called MTV a reliable news source.
And no-one is arguing that war isn't horrifying.
I would never have called MTV a reliable news source.
And no-one is arguing that war isn't horrifying.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Which why I also said it aired elsewhere, including major news network.
And actually MTV news:docs are really respected and win many awards within respectable journalistic societies for tackling many issues that "others" won't. Their news:doc on AIDS and Politics in Africa is well worth a look.
Which why I also said it aired elsewhere, including major news network.
And actually MTV news:docs are really respected and win many awards within respectable journalistic societies for tackling many issues that "others" won't. Their news:doc on AIDS and Politics in Africa is well worth a look.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Our local VA's are struggling to stay afloat. Three of them have been shut down, or depts in them have been shut down. PWB's mom works in them as a radiologist and now has to travel between them each week and it really puts her to task.
Written by: faithinfire
local VA's are doing a fantastic job with rehabs
Our local VA's are struggling to stay afloat. Three of them have been shut down, or depts in them have been shut down. PWB's mom works in them as a radiologist and now has to travel between them each week and it really puts her to task.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
enthusiast
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
255 posts
Location: Melbourne - home of pirates
Posted:
I think that no matter how much rehab you put someone through, the trauma only becomes "managable" in a best case scenario.
Some of the people dearest to me have been through traumas (not service related) and all the best mental health care in the world can't make them the same person they were beforehand. If we are going to put people through that pain, there had better be a good and justifiable reason why. First Lt. Watada believes that there isn't a good and justifiable reason for the invasion/occupation of Iraq.
Why throw away your own life, and cause massive trauma and death to other people, for something you believe makes no sense?
I think that no matter how much rehab you put someone through, the trauma only becomes "managable" in a best case scenario.
Some of the people dearest to me have been through traumas (not service related) and all the best mental health care in the world can't make them the same person they were beforehand. If we are going to put people through that pain, there had better be a good and justifiable reason why. First Lt. Watada believes that there isn't a good and justifiable reason for the invasion/occupation of Iraq.
Why throw away your own life, and cause massive trauma and death to other people, for something you believe makes no sense?
"You've gone from Loey the Wonder Lesbian to everyone wondering if you are a lesbian." - Shadowman
Yesterday is yesterday. If we try to recapture it, we will only lose tomorrow.
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
because he signed a contract
because he signed a contract
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
old hand
768 posts
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Posted:
I honestly have to say I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't support the war and never believed the Bush administration about our reasons for going into Iraq from the beginning. I also find this quote by the soldier to be demonstrative of greater patriotism than the sloganeering of those that support the war without question:
"WATADA: Certainly. I think that when we take an oath we, as soldiers and officers, swear to protect the constitution — with our lives as necessary — and those constitutional values and laws that make us free and make us a democracy. And when we have one branch of government that intentionally deceives another branch of government in order to authorize war, and intentionally deceives the people in order to gain that public support, that is a grave breach of our constitutional values, our laws, our checks and balances, and separation of power."
Basically, I find Lt. Watada's actions to be more patriotic than supporting the war.
On the other hand, and I have to say I agree with Faith here (and I'd guess we probably wouldn't agree on most things), he signed a contract. A soldier's job is not to think things through and accept only those assignments he agrees with. A soldier's job is to follow his orders. I personally have a problem with that and am generally opposed to war, which is why I myself am not in the armed forces. However, Lt. Watada did enlist of his own accord and he should have known what was expected of him when he put on the uniform.
I do respect him for taking a stand, and for doing the research and coming to the conclusion he came to. It would have been great if he'd done that work before enlisting. I suppose he must feel like he joined under false pretenses, which in a sense, he did. I suppose there's wiggle room there, but from the military perspective, allowing him to avoid any discipline would really destabilize an already shaky military. It would send the message that soldiers can feel free to disregard orders they don't agree with, and that would result in a bigger mess than the one we already have over there.
Perhaps the best solution would be to just discharge him and be done with it.
The best solution overall, of course, would be to make a world where military forces are completely unnecessary. Don't see that happening anytime soon though.
I honestly have to say I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't support the war and never believed the Bush administration about our reasons for going into Iraq from the beginning. I also find this quote by the soldier to be demonstrative of greater patriotism than the sloganeering of those that support the war without question:
"WATADA: Certainly. I think that when we take an oath we, as soldiers and officers, swear to protect the constitution — with our lives as necessary — and those constitutional values and laws that make us free and make us a democracy. And when we have one branch of government that intentionally deceives another branch of government in order to authorize war, and intentionally deceives the people in order to gain that public support, that is a grave breach of our constitutional values, our laws, our checks and balances, and separation of power."
Basically, I find Lt. Watada's actions to be more patriotic than supporting the war.
On the other hand, and I have to say I agree with Faith here (and I'd guess we probably wouldn't agree on most things), he signed a contract. A soldier's job is not to think things through and accept only those assignments he agrees with. A soldier's job is to follow his orders. I personally have a problem with that and am generally opposed to war, which is why I myself am not in the armed forces. However, Lt. Watada did enlist of his own accord and he should have known what was expected of him when he put on the uniform.
I do respect him for taking a stand, and for doing the research and coming to the conclusion he came to. It would have been great if he'd done that work before enlisting. I suppose he must feel like he joined under false pretenses, which in a sense, he did. I suppose there's wiggle room there, but from the military perspective, allowing him to avoid any discipline would really destabilize an already shaky military. It would send the message that soldiers can feel free to disregard orders they don't agree with, and that would result in a bigger mess than the one we already have over there.
Perhaps the best solution would be to just discharge him and be done with it.
The best solution overall, of course, would be to make a world where military forces are completely unnecessary. Don't see that happening anytime soon though.
taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco
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