Forums > Social Discussion > Poi and Feminine Empowerment

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
that comment rouge leaves me just a little confused

I think Any kind of exercise can give the feelings described; toy orientated or not, the physical responses to activity have natural relaxing properties like increased blood flow, endorphine release, deeper breathing, improved co-ordination. the important factor is finding an activity you enjoy.

That's one of the reasons I enjoy Juggling and staff (poi not so much as I still have a tendancy to smack my gentleman areas if only for the sake of comedy) the activity is fun and social and non-competitive. I'm a very competitive person so to have a hobby where you can "win" without someone else losing is great.

And the best bit is you can share with anyone male or female.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
If you've ever heard me swear you'll know why I'm not a lady

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
Refuge: No, it's not hypocritical. The issue being addressed is the marginalization of women, and as soon as men actually are marginalized, you'll be relevant to the issue at hand. But to come in to a discussion of empowering women and whine about being excluded would be absurd to the point of hilarity if it weren't also so infuriating.

Further, it's worth noting that not everyone in this forum is from the "western world" (where women certainly do not wear the pants in any case), and that large portions of Asia are reasonably represented where things are not nearly as well off for women as they are in North America or Europe.

MNS: Wow! Two names! And yet that fails to overflow a single hand. MCP was already on my list, so even adding the other person I've never heard of, I'm still on one hand. Hardly an argument against a trend in favor of high profile, technically proficient spinners being male. The spinning community fails to oppress women in the sense of not smacking us and telling us to get back in the kitchen, but you're enjoying a particular luxury if you think there aren't any factors in the community that marginalize women.

I'm not going to add more to this talk because I'm sick to death of going through this talk time and time again, andthere's a lot of literature available on contemporary feminist issues which, shock and awe, men don't typically feel any inclination to at least acquaint themselves with. (To be fair, not enough women bother looking into their own historical situation either, but I can safely tell you which side the readership tilts toward.)

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
I'm sorry, Sister Eleven, I skimmed over the "on one hand" part of your original statement and got the wrong idea.

You don't have to go far back to be able to say the same for male spinners, really. Perhaps going onto the second hand, but if I went looking for them I could probably put more than 5 into the female tech spinner videos anyway.

Hows it a marginalisation though? There aren't a lot of that I've met females willing to learn tech. Usually they're more on the 'social' side of spinning than actually pursuing tech poi.

This may well be due to socialisation, specifically gendering, but this is not the skill toy community specifically.

I've read foucault a bit for university and interest, actually.

I'm a man that is marginalised every damn day! Marginalised for smoking, for the way I dress, for the way I look.
Marginalised in this case because as a male my non-suppressive opinion has been met with with hostility!

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
omg will HoP stop eating my posts!!!

Originally Posted By: Sister Elevenyou're enjoying a particular luxury if you think there aren't any factors in the community that marginalize women.

I'm genuinely curious as to what experiences you've had of women being marginalised in the spinning community!

I can think of a number of things that the spinning community would show signs of marginalising people for, but being female isn't one of them...at least nothing is coming to my mind and I've been trying to think!

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: Rouge Dragonomg will HoP stop eating my posts!!!

Originally Posted By: Sister Elevenyou're enjoying a particular luxury if you think there aren't any factors in the community that marginalize women.

I'm genuinely curious as to what experiences you've had of women being marginalised in the spinning community!

I can think of a number of things that the spinning community would show signs of marginalising people for, but being female isn't one of them...at least nothing is coming to my mind and I've been trying to think!

Help help, I'm being opressed

I'm marginalized for many things in this community, my t&a is not one of them

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
I hate it when yer spinning, and it feels awesome, then some chick thinks "Oh maybe ill eat some fire, let me just get into my sexy mood" then she lights up and immediately EVERYONE is drawn to her. You could be being attacked by a chainsaw wielding grizzly and no one would notice because of that cute girl over there.

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
Thats just cos you do staff, Poje. And we all know what a staffer is worth.

Posted: 22nd Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: faith enfire
I'm marginalized for many things in this community, my t&a is not one of them

*dreams of Faith's tits and arse*

However, yes, perfect example.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven(I'm probably the most technical female spinner I know, and I can count the reasonably technical women spinners I've seen online on one hand) and there's increasing opportunities for women to become visible contributors to the arts.

Like MNS said, is this not merely a difference in focus across genders? I know I do not really care about the source of my tech poi, but will acknowledge that they are all male. Mostly because I do not have the bandwidth to look at too many unknowns at the moment, so I tend to stick to people I know: Drex, Alien Jon, Poiboy. I am sure there are others I could be watching, but do not know of them, so it may simply be a matter of profile outside of youtube. *shrug*

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Hmmmm, I tend to agree with FireTom . . .

I don't believe the spinning community in general marginalises anything - lots of "live and let live" here I suspect. But if one is "anti" something/anything, then that one will find fault everywhere they look. The world would indeed be a better place if everyone truly accepts everyone else for what/who they are, but you won't change the ones who don't by rubbing their noses in it because by doing so, you are exhibiting the same characteristics as you would want to eliminate.

/soapbox

And that Red Dragon critter is certainly no lady or gentleman either - we're still not sure what category she/it should be under. Perhaps "annoying yobbo" ?? How say you Rouge?

Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Bitch.

Thankyou-very-much. I am a bitch.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonThats just cos you do staff, Poje. And we all know what a staffer is worth.

yes - 2 poiers
also equivalent to half a juggler

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
What the hell?!? Since when were women allowed to post on the internet? If they're on the internet, who's watching the stove, or the kids, or *insert female stereotype here, something to do with hormones will suffice*?

Man, I am so going to regret getting involved in this, but I'm tired and bored, 'so let's go'.

From my observations, there aren't nearly as many techincally proficient female spinners as males. MCP springs to mind, but her style of spinning doesn't exactly embody feminine spirit.

I don't know why there are less techy females out there, but I can speculate that it's because they can get as much attention from a non-spinning audience as a male pulling tangled-inversion hybrids, by doing a buzzsaw, leaning back and wearing skimpy clothing while having a cute smile on her face.

Is that as female empowerment? Men seem to dominate the 'skill' based side of things, while most women allow themselves to get by on looks and sexual objectification, letting techincal proficiency fall to the wayside.

Maybe that is female empowerment? Taking advantage of their sex appeal and using it as a strength? Who knows, maybe it doesn't even matter, as I know that I enjoy watching sexy girls do basic moves almost as much as a technical spinner, although for different reasons...

But, what does matter is the sexual exclusion occuring here. We as humans should be trying to attain sexual equality, not 'women's rights', and that is an important distinction to make. By attempting to blockade this thread from male input, are you not exercising the same oppressive behaviour that women struggled for so long and are still struggling to overcome?

I like to think women have stepped above hypocrisy when it comes to gender discrimination issues...

Let's stop acting like members of adversarial factions, and start recognising that we're more similar than disimilar.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
What about three ball jugglers? Are they one third more than a poier? Consequently, 3 times a staffer?

Also, I do not think that anyone will tell a girl "no, I will not teach you tech [or anything else really]". If someone wants to learn a skill I can teach, awesome - more people learning cool stuff.

What does annoy me is either not getting thanked or people only learning a couple things and never actually pushing themselves with it; that is something both genders do though.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: MynciOriginally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonThats just cos you do staff, Poje. And we all know what a staffer is worth.

yes - 2 poiers
also equivalent to half a juggler

LOL


I'm a staffer AND a half juggler....so REALLY im like 4 poiers

O.B.E.S.E.

Owned by Mynci!

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
I'm bad at poi because I suck at coordination and always have. It has nothing to do with being a girl, it has to do with me being a klutz. I like to think I am very very slowly getting better, but it'll probably take years for me to be any good at it. I enjoy it though.

Nathanialeverest: For someone who wants us to stop being "adversarial", you are certainly behaving in such a way.

Happiness is a skill, not a commodity
I have been kidnapped by hooping.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
I'm am adversary to gender inequality, but not to women.

I am acting adversarially in response to what I saw as gender discrimination, which in my mind is a good thing to be opposed to.

I bear no negativity towards anybody in this forum, or towards women at all, so my adversarialism is directed towards the concept and enaction of gender inequality. I apologise if I came across as aggressive or arrogant, because my intentions were nothing of the sort.

Posted: 23rd Apr 2010
Is this discussion really happening and how many people are just speaking in pure jest?

While I must say that I'm anti-[insert special interest group here] it's not right to wish for people to not embrace their individuality which for some is being female, kind of a paradoxical concept to promote happiness and equality at "gun point" to disacknowledge one of the components of reality that is pretty clear on face value...

*weary of touching this one with a 20 ft pole*

~Rock on!~

"As the pattern gets more intricate and subtle, being swept along is no longer enough"-Waking Life

(All you RLers this is epitome_of_lame *waves hello*)

Posted: 24th Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: EpitomeOfNoviceIs this discussion really happening and how many people are just speaking in pure jest?

While I must say that I'm anti-[insert special interest group here] it's not right to wish for people to not embrace their individuality which for some is being female, kind of a paradoxical concept to promote happiness and equality at "gun point" to disacknowledge one of the components of reality that is pretty clear on face value...

*weary of touching this one with a 20 ft pole*

*Giggles*

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Posted: 24th Apr 2010
Nothing about "sexy, half-naked" spinning makes females empowered. (I personally can't stand when some chick tries too hard to be hot and actually spins like crap and without any true passion. Anyway....)

Nothing about this female empowerment thread was supposed to make anyone become defensive or upset! Noooo!

There's just been a general imbalance for centuries. Look at how many national female leaders there are in the world. It's odd. It should be about 50/ 50. It's not. Chile has a female leader.

My acupuncture therapist and friend read that feminine energy will soon come back into balance. Poi is just one of the wonderful ways to build confidence, in my opinion. It's so awesome!

Some men, too, hide and reject their feminine sides which makes the imbalance worse. Guys, it's ok to cry, to love, to wear a skirt, and to spin around and dance with fire like a flower.

Posted: 24th Apr 2010
Feminine energy? Well, Rouge_Dragon hasn't got a whole lot of that...

But who is to say what being a man or being a woman means?

You say that its ok for a man to cry... I agree, but wheres the idea that emotional restraint is a typically male trait come from?

The answer is from socialisation. Masculine and feminine are labels we incorrectly ascribe to a human being, we are different because we've through the generations been pointing out the differences between men and women.

In reality we are not particularly different, hormones aside. Masculine? Feminine? These are just labels that're counter productive to achieving a true balance. The stigma that comes with it is overwhelming.

Its ok for people to cry, not just 'its ok for men to cry'

Posted: 24th Apr 2010
OMG! SE please just one last time come make the points you made to me.(in a private discussion) They were indeed food for thought!

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Posted: 25th Apr 2010
Now, I must clarify most definitely! A naked woman spinning in a tribal-like state of mind (as in the basic human nature state) is as beautiful as the sun rising. But a naked woman spinning in an objectifying, look-at-me state of mind is not beautiful. The positive or negative intention is what drives the phrase, “feminine empowerment” to have complete opposite connotations.

Think of it more like, go feminine nature! Many of you are right: the physical female “sheltering” is not so much the imbalance here, but more the feme energy in general.

OoO it is neat to understand sides when people get up and speak their thoughts. Nice job, forum people!


“To promote the work of reconciliation, we have to refrain from aligning ourselves with one party or another so that we understand both.”

-TNH

Posted: 25th Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonFeminine energy? Well, Rouge_Dragon hasn't got a whole lot of that...


Yup. That's true!



And I just feel that I should say that I'm just not interested in technical poi. I've had a number of blokes offer to teach me, but I lost interest pretty quickly. I just prefer to dance with the few moves that I have. I don't feel any pressure at all do spin that way because I'm female. It's just what I like.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

Posted: 27th Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: aston
Like MNS said, is this not merely a difference in focus across genders? I know I do not really care about the source of my tech poi, but will acknowledge that they are all male. Mostly because I do not have the bandwidth to look at too many unknowns at the moment, so I tend to stick to people I know: Drex, Alien Jon, Poiboy. I am sure there are others I could be watching, but do not know of them, so it may simply be a matter of profile outside of youtube. *shrug*

I'll reply to you, Aston, because you're straw-manning the least so far.

Okay, so what's the reason for this "difference in focus across the genders" if there is one? Rule out any explanations that include gender essentialism, because an explanation in terms of nonsense is no explanation. Such a "difference in focus" would surely not be a random, acausal event. Focuses, preferences, and interests are not uncaused events; they are not something people spin out of whole cloth. Nor would the difference in YouTube prominence be a result of pure chance. Why is there a gender imbalance here at all given that men and women have (ostensibly) the same access to poi, the internet, and geekiness? The causes for these may be quite external to the poi community as a whole, but they are nonetheless causes of a gendered divide in visibility within the community. The point is that there are likely non-obvious social pressures producing this state of affairs, or there is a very major statistical anomaly occurring. (Anyone who thinks that marginalization involves people's overt attitudes/intentions or the feelings of the marginalized party has completely missed the point.)

Personally, I find it more than a little interesting that cj.org's collaborative video had a pretty even gender balance, but HoP's had not one female contributor. Clearly the imbalance isn't so severe in all the skill arts, but you have to be curious as to what causes one to be more imbalanced than the other.

If you still don't get what I'm on about, I'm happy to take it up in private messages. But most of the commenters have really, really missed my point.

p|.q|r:|::s|.s|s:|:.s|q.|:p|s.|.p|s

Posted: 27th Apr 2010
If I only had a brain, doot du doo doo doot da doo doot....

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...

Posted: 27th Apr 2010
Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven
I'll reply to you, Aston, because you're straw-manning the least so far.

Sorry, how was I or anybody else straw-manning? If you're going to throw such an accusation around, you'll need to support it at least a little.

Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenNo, it's not hypocritical. The issue being addressed is the marginalization of women, and as soon as men actually are marginalized, you'll be relevant to the issue at hand.

Can you not see the paradoxical nature of this statement? The strange thing is that this thread was actually marginalising men by excluding them from the discussion/encouragement. Men were being marginalised for not being marginalised... if that makes sense... probably not.

Originally Posted By: Sister Elevenandthere's a lot of literature available on contemporary feminist issues which, shock and awe, men don't typically feel any inclination to at least acquaint themselves with

Are you not marginalising Men by making the assumption that men 'typically' don't acquaint themselves with feminist literature? I've read more feminist literature than any female I know personally, as I was made to study it fairly extensively at uni in Philosophy and my Law degree(both subjects that have been very male-dominated, but from a glace appear to be approaching 50/50).

That asside, I see people's (both men and women) ignorance of feminine literature a good indication, as it shows that such literature is losing its relevence, which suggests to me that gender inequality is slowly becoming less of an issue in our society.

Originally Posted By: Sister Eleven
Rule out any explanations that include gender essentialism, because an explanation in terms of nonsense is no explanation.

This doesn't sit right with me, to pre-emptively attempt to disclude something and call it nonsense outright before anybody has bought it up seems unsettlingly aggressive... as does your whole post really.

I also disagree with the way you have pretty much said "if you still disagree, you've missed the point" in the last sentence of your post.

There's no need to be so confrontational and domineering.
I'm not here to fight, just discuss, and I'm fairly sure I speak for everybody when I say that.

Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenThe spinning community fails to oppress women in the sense of not smacking us and telling us to get back in the kitchen, but you're enjoying a particular luxury if you think there aren't any factors in the community that marginalize women.

Sorry, you'll need to specify in what way the spinning community oppresses women, through any factors.

Originally Posted By: Sister ElevenThe causes for these may be quite external to the poi community as a whole, but they are nonetheless causes of a gendered divide in visibility within the community

This seems a little contradictory to the quote from you above it, unless I have misinterpreted you (which is very possible). Again, could you specify what these causes may be? You're stating that there are causes, but not being clear to whether they exist within or outside of the community, and without giving any hint as to what these causes and factors could possibly be, so if you think I'm missing your point, perhaps more information is needed.

Yes, it is of interest to me that the HOP collaboration video had no women in it, especially when to my memory, the COL videos (at least the ones I have) have quite a strong female pressence. I have a few theories as to why this is, but I'll need to cultivate them a little before I post...

I think that gender inequality is dissipating, it's not gone by any means, but it's going, if you want me to post a bunch of links to statistics supporting this, I will.

I love women, and men and don't think either should be oppressed in any unjust way. I do whatever I can to encourage women in their spinning and I do the same for men.

Posted: 27th Apr 2010
I think the online spinning community marginalises women in a big way - perhaps moreso locally (ie in my Country) than else-where, and I've been around long enough to know it hasn't always been this way.




EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1272417822)

--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Posted: 27th Apr 2010
Looks like this Polack/Mick is going to have to be the Devil's advocate. Sigh.

Come on guys seriously? This thread has plummeted so far off topic the G forces made me pass out! I thought this thread was intended for female empowerment, not female defending your equality.

Why is it that whenever a woman makes some kind of statement about women seeking fulfillment or rising above stereotypes and prejudices in society, immediately there is a group of men standing on the sides griping about reverse discrimination and the need to make things equal? That to me smacks more of passive sexism than balancing genders.

Is the topic of this thread really so bad people had to step in and demand inclusion? It seems more like girl chat about enjoying spinning and the benefits thereof, now a few pages later, this? I wasn't even going to post on this topic until I saw where this was going.

People here complain about being marginalized because of how they look or act. Same here, for half my life I've been picked on for choosing to align myself with various subcultures and styles. Yeah I still get grief for having a face full of metal and shirts with upside-down crosses on them. These are my choices which I accept. A woman will still get harassed for how she chooses to look or act, but most of all she will still be treated differently for her gender. She will still be regarded differently in daily life, out in the world, at home or at work.

Example: I've worked in kitchens for years, I've got a knack for food. Very rarely do I see women working in the kitchens, and even then not for long. To me it seems that the male mindset doesn't necessarily want to exclude females, but that it doesn't quite know how to incorporate it into the male pack mentality. In a busy, stressed out environment, men resort to their group instincts we used way back hunting feral creatures and these instincts didn't include women. Since the human race has evolved so little in our existence it seems like a lot of what happens is rooted in our genes and thus why these practices continue to happen at all levels of society. In male dominated realms, women will inevitably struggle against these mindsets that a lot of men seem to be ignorant or apathetic about.

And values ingrained in various aspects of our different cultures seem to reward these bad behavior: men who bully their way into geting whatever they want or catty backstabbing women. There are modernized cultures that still enforce arranged marriages and stone women to death for exposing her face in public. And these are first world nations with just as much connection to the world as we do. Even here in the Western world fake tits are considered awesome and if a woman isn't heart broken and an emotional wreck after a break up with her boyfriend she's considered a slut.

Guys, really: chill out. Nobody is out to get you. Leave this thread for what it was intended. If you are so upset about the gall of the OP, make a thread titled "Men: Why We're Still Awesome"

And think long and hard before any more talk of reverse discrimination or an imbalance of equality. It's still tipped but the direction has not changed at all. That is silly whining with no basis.

"Are you sure it's safe to drink bleach?"
"Yes, bleach is 90% water, we are 90% water, therefore: we are bleach."
-Nathan Explosion, Metalocalypse